Leverage and no trade clauses

[AU-panther]

55 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

That is incorrect. All that money was paid out at signing. That is all that is required for him to get that money, to simply sign.

However, they can go after the bonus in an arbitration. It isn't likely to net them a victory and certainly not a complete victory. What they can do is pile on fines as he sits out but that won't impact his bonus money much.

If a player retires they can go after all of the signing bonus that wasn’t played for,  

If he is just refusing to play and not officially retired I think they have to go after it one year at a time for each year he doesn’t play, which would still be a large amount.

Billionaire owners aren’t going to sign contracts that allow them to be screwed over. Guarantees are for injury and performance, refusing to play can be viewed as defaulting.

 

[Wes21]

2 hours ago, t96 said:

Ramsey did it. Phantom "injury."

I remember Santonio Holmes did this to the Jets.  Its the best way out for an athlete.  Show up and then claim hammy or bad back...something that's not really verifiable.  Now you are there, so they have to pay you.  But you are annoying as all heck for what you are doing.  And to be a real dik you can practice all week and then during pregame warmups pull out!

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

That is incorrect. All that money was paid out at signing. That is all that is required for him to get that money, to simply sign.

However, they can go after the bonus in an arbitration. It isn't likely to net them a victory and certainly not a complete victory. What they can do is pile on fines as he sits out but that won't impact his bonus money much.

If you go back and study the Calvin Johnson and Barry Sanders situations in Detroit where the Lions were able to get back signing bonus money, it tells a different story.  To everybody that hears "signing bonus," it sounds an awful lot like a bonus you get at signing that is free and clear the moment you get it.  Spreading out of the bonus money for the books seems like an accounting thing, not a real thing.  What was discovered in the BS and CJ situations is that bonus money can be looked at as an advancement of future earnings.  Therefore if you do not follow thru on your contract, the team can recapture a portion of your signing bonus money.  The Seahawks did it to the Michigan State kid as well.  The Seahawks could have gotten back around $5M from Marshawn Lynch, but let him walk away with it as a parting gift.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Wes21

[Shotgun]

1 minute ago, AU-panther said:

If a player retires they can go after all of the signing bonus that wasn’t played for,  

If he is just refusing to play and not officially retired I think they have to go after it one year at a time for each year he doesn’t play, which would still be a large amount.

Billionaire owners aren’t going to sign contracts that allow them to be screwed over. Guarantees are for injury and performance, refusing to play can be viewed as defaulting.

 

He'll say "Im hurt" wink wink.

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, AU-panther said:

If a player retires they can go after all of the signing bonus that wasn’t played for,  

If he is just refusing to play and not officially retired I think they have to go after it one year at a time for each year he doesn’t play, which would still be a large amount.

Billionaire owners aren’t going to sign contracts that allow them to be screwed over. Guarantees are for injury and performance, refusing to play can be viewed as defaulting.

 

The signing bonus arbitration is part of the negotiated CBA. The owners gained some more ability to levy fines for holding out but that didn't include the ability to summarily go after signing bonuses. 

Furthermore, the NFLPA isn't going to roll over on that one. Watson isn't Antonio Brown.

[kungfoodude]

4 minutes ago, Wes21 said:

I remember Santonio Holmes did this to the Jets.  Its the best way out for an athlete.  Show up and then claim hammy or bad back...something that's not really verifiable.  Now you are there, so they have to pay you.  But you are annoying as all heck for what you are doing.  And to be a real dik you can practice all week and then during pregame warmups pull out!

If you go back and study the Calvin Johnson and Barry Sanders situations in Detroit where the Lions were able to get back signing bonus money, it tells a different story.  To everybody that hears "signing bonus," it sounds an awful lot like a bonus you get at signing that is free and clear the moment you get it.  Spreading out of the bonus money for the books seems like an accounting thing, not a real thing.  What was discovered in the BS and CJ situations is that bonus money can be looked at as an advancement of future earnings.  Therefore if you do not follow thru on your contract, the team can recapture a portion of your signing bonus money.  The Seahawks did it to the Michigan State kid as well.  The Seahawks could have gotten back around $5M from Marshawn Lynch, but let him walk away with it as a parting gift.

It is still subject to arbitration. It is not something they can just "take."

[AU-panther]

Just now, kungfoodude said:

The signing bonus arbitration is part of the negotiated CBA. The owners gained some more ability to levy fines for holding out but that didn't include the ability to summarily go after signing bonuses. 

Furthermore, the NFLPA isn't going to roll over on that one. Watson isn't Antonio Brown.

Source? 
 
I would think the ability to go after the signing bonus would be largely dependent on the individual contract between player and team. 
 

[kungfoodude]

4 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

Source? 
 
I would think the ability to go after the signing bonus would be largely dependent on the individual contract between player and team. 
 

It is in the new CBA. Article 4, Section 9 (a) (vi) and also (b). That addresses the arbitration of attempting to recoup "Forfeitable Salary Allocations."

It does read as if they have to go after it in a year-by-year manner, though. They can't go after the future years outright, it doesn't appear.

So he is likely to be out his 2021 salary and bonuses at most. Unless the Texans are dumb enough to continue this past a year. IMO, the league would be likely to step in if that happened. If there is anything the NFL doesn't like, it is bad press.

[mav1234]

4 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Actually, they're not.

Multiple sources have reported that while teams are calling them to discuss offers, the Texans aren't listening and they're not returning anyone's calls.

All indications are they're pretty staunchly dug in on this.

I've seen multiple reports indicating that they are trying to "take the high road" but teams are calling. I've not heard any of the major reporters say they're "not returning calls."  Where's that written down?

[Mr. Scot]

28 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

I've seen multiple reports indicating that they are trying to "take the high road" but teams are calling. I've not heard any of the major reporters say they're "not returning calls."  Where's that written down?

In the tweet itself and a little after 1:25 into the video...

Also here:

Quote

 The Texans, to my knowledge, have shut down all overtures for a Watson trade, since he requested one two weeks ago. But until this thing is settled, calls are gonna keep coming. At what point does Caserio have to start listening?

MMQB - 2/2/21

John McClain and Aaron Wilson have both acknowledged it as well.

[mav1234]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

In the tweet itself and a little after 1:25 into the video...

Also here:

MMQB - 2/2/21

John McClain and Aaron Wilson have both acknowledged it as well.

So the same sources that say they're not taking calls say they'll have to soon... Heh

[Moo Daeng]

47 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

I've seen multiple reports indicating that they are trying to "take the high road" but teams are calling. I've not heard any of the major reporters say they're "not returning calls."  Where's that written down?

The not returning calls was regarding Watson. The Texans are just not entertaining trade talks.

[mav1234]

Just now, Moo Daeng said:

The not returning calls was regarding Watson. The Texans are just not entertaining trade talks.

Fair enough - I had just heard the public comments.  From what I had read, they're trying to convince Watson to stay, but I hadn't heard they won't even return calls yet.  It makes sense they're still trying with Watson - I mean they hired the coach they did in hopes of keeping him.

If Watson refuses to play, it would be very detrimental to the organization to try to force him to, when they could recoup their losses and give their new FO a shot to mold the team in the way they want

[Mr. Scot]

18 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

So the same sources that say they're not taking calls say they'll have to soon... Heh

Well, Breer speculates they might, but nobody expects it to be anytime soon.

When he was asked in a recent mailbag column where Watson will be playing next year, he said this...

Quote

J.T., I think he’ll be playing in Houston, and I think the Texans would be ridiculous to entertain trading him at this point. The trouble is, I really can’t say if he’s gonna budge, mostly because I’ve gotten no indication that’s going to happen. But Watson’s way too special not to exhaust every avenue to try and fix the situation, and I don’t think Houston’s close to having exhausted every avenue.

In the column linked above, he added...

Quote

Also interesting will be whether McNair gets pressure from other owners to hold firm on keeping Watson, so as not to set a sort of NBA-style precedent for the rest of the league.

John McClain actually thinks they should talk trade, but acknowledges they're adamant that they're not gonna trade him.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Mr. Scot

[TrevorLaurenceTime22]

6 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

It is still subject to arbitration. It is not something they can just "take."

Going to arbitration over it will almost always recoup it for the team, In this case they will likely go after it. Luke Kuechy is an example of the team not going after it.