Chance of resigning Moton and Samuel

[AU-panther]

A lot of talk about we have to decide on one of the other, I think it is possible we could keep both if we want.

If we resign these guys their 1st year cap cost aren't going to be too bad, most NFL contracts are back loaded, so lets look at our cap breakdown on the offensive side of the ball in 2022.

A few assumptions:

Paradis, Robby, and Teddy are gone.  Our QB is the first pick from this year (roughly $4m a year).

Moton is an elite player at a high value positions so I'll assume $16m a year.  I'm going to include Okung at $10m a year, I know he has been hurt a lot but I'm not sure what our options are, don't' say a rookie, chances are they won't be any better than average in their first year.  I'm all for developing a rookie but with a young QB we need a vet LT that we are comfortable with while the young guy develops. 

I have Moore at $16m (will actually be less in his first year but that should be close to average) and Samuel at $10m.  There are a lot of FA WRs this year, also the last two draft classes have been pretty good at WR, so I'm thinking Samuels market might not be as crazy as some think, especially if we are patient.

QB - $4m - Rookie

LT - $10m - Okung

LG - $2m -

C - $2m -

RG - $2m -

RT - $16m - Moton

TE - $2m - 

RB - $16m - CMC

WR - $16m - Moore

WR - $10m - Samuel

WR3 - $2m - 

That's $82m allocated, with a salary cap that will probably be $200+ million, not too bad.

That leaves LG, C, RG, TE and WR 3 to fill for around $10m, which is basically some players on rookie deals or cheap vets.  Speaking of which, these would be guys we should be looking for in this years draft.  In a perfect world you should be drafting a guy a year before you need them.

Also everyone can tweak the numbers, not looking to get in that discussion, just a ballpark of where we would be.  For example CMC is closer to $13m that year I think, but then he goes to $16m.  Maybe we can resign Samuel closer to $8m or Okung for $9m.

Of course all of this is based on us going with a rookie QB and Teddy being released, but if that happens this idea that we can't afford both Samuel and Moton is false.  We might decide not to but it won't be because we can't.

 

 

 

 

 

[Basbear]

Lots of thoughts here, I disagree with cutting Robby. Weathery and KK should be gone, though you are focusing on O here. I not big on cutting Teddy either, much better to wait til after 2021 as painful as it is.LG, C, RG, TE and WR 3 to fill for around $10m is painful too. Been trying to tell people, panthers do not have the cap space they think. I think this years rookie pool is close to 10 million and most smart teams carry 10-5 million into the season, otherwise you can not sign anyone worth a dam for injuries. Some guys will not get off the lazy boy for less than 250k in guarantees. Its a problem and most here dont understand it, forget about adding 9 OLmen, 3 TEs. Just isnt enough and every time you cut a starter (ei paradis) you have to replace him. 

[AU-panther]

1 minute ago, Basbear said:

Lots of thoughts here, I disagree with cutting Robby. Weathery and KK should be gone, though you are focusing on O here. I not big on cutting Teddy either, much better to wait til after 2021 as painful as it is.LG, C, RG, TE and WR 3 to fill for around $10m is painful too. Been trying to tell people, panthers do not have the cap space they think. I think this years rookie pool is close to 10 million and most smart teams carry 10-5 million into the season, otherwise you can not sign anyone worth a dam for injuries. Some guys will not get off the lazy boy for less than 250k in guarantees. Its a problem and most here dont understand it, forget about adding 9 OLmen, 3 TEs. Just isnt enough and every time you cut a starter (ei paradis) you have to replace him. 

My list was based on 2022, Robby is a free agent then and yes it makes more sense to cut Teddy then.

And filling 5 spots for $10m isn't really that painfull.  The majority of an NFL teams roster is made up of guys making less than a $1m.

That's $82m for your starters, add another $10-12m for your backups that's only $90m allocated for your entire offense.  Leaves over $100m for your defense, which has alot of guys on rookie contracts.

I'm not saying we are loaded with cap space but we can resign Moton and Samuel if we want.

 

 

[Basbear]

18 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

My list was based on 2022, Robby is a free agent then and yes it makes more sense to cut Teddy then.

And filling 5 spots for $10m isn't really that painfull.  The majority of an NFL teams roster is made up of guys making less than a $1m.

That's $82m for your starters, add another $10-12m for your backups that's only $90m allocated for your entire offense.  Leaves over $100m for your defense, which has alot of guys on rookie contracts.

I'm not saying we are loaded with cap space but we can resign Moton and Samuel if we want.

 

 

My brain didnt see the 2022 part, Robby has a good chance at getting a extension this offseason. Same for Moore, it will be hard to figure that for the new GM. We dont have a good idea on what number the NFL will pick for 2021, 2022 could be less again or take part of the 2021 dip. Hard to know. Once a new GM is hired and they release the real 2021 cap number, that will help what happens in 2022. Most are paid around 1 million, not starters tho. Panthers need 5 starting OLmen(paradis cut) starting TE and starting Flex too. Sure a couple can be filled with 1 million types/rookies, but not all. 

Understand that panthers need 25+/- players with around 40 million in space. Rough math - 10 million for rookies, 10 million for injuries and 15 million for Moton that leaves 5 million for Samuel and 14 players. Puts big pressure on the 7 rookies and 3 UDFAs to play well too. Thats not going to work. I know they want to sign Haason Reddick too along with others. Numbers do not allow this. Rhule said tough choices to make for reasons. 

[beo]

5 hours ago, AU-panther said:

A lot of talk about we have to decide on one of the other, I think it is possible we could keep both if we want.

If we resign these guys their 1st year cap cost aren't going to be too bad, most NFL contracts are back loaded, so lets look at our cap breakdown on the offensive side of the ball in 2022.

A few assumptions:

Paradis, Robby, and Teddy are gone.  Our QB is the first pick from this year (roughly $4m a year).

Moton is an elite player at a high value positions so I'll assume $16m a year.  I'm going to include Okung at $10m a year, I know he has been hurt a lot but I'm not sure what our options are, don't' say a rookie, chances are they won't be any better than average in their first year.  I'm all for developing a rookie but with a young QB we need a vet LT that we are comfortable with while the young guy develops. 

I have Moore at $16m (will actually be less in his first year but that should be close to average) and Samuel at $10m.  There are a lot of FA WRs this year, also the last two draft classes have been pretty good at WR, so I'm thinking Samuels market might not be as crazy as some think, especially if we are patient.

QB - $4m - Rookie

LT - $10m - Okung

LG - $2m -

C - $2m -

RG - $2m -

RT - $16m - Moton

TE - $2m - 

RB - $16m - CMC

WR - $16m - Moore

WR - $10m - Samuel

WR3 - $2m - 

That's $82m allocated, with a salary cap that will probably be $200+ million, not too bad.

That leaves LG, C, RG, TE and WR 3 to fill for around $10m, which is basically some players on rookie deals or cheap vets.  Speaking of which, these would be guys we should be looking for in this years draft.  In a perfect world you should be drafting a guy a year before you need them.

Also everyone can tweak the numbers, not looking to get in that discussion, just a ballpark of where we would be.  For example CMC is closer to $13m that year I think, but then he goes to $16m.  Maybe we can resign Samuel closer to $8m or Okung for $9m.

Of course all of this is based on us going with a rookie QB and Teddy being released, but if that happens this idea that we can't afford both Samuel and Moton is false.  We might decide not to but it won't be because we can't.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think that I can get behind keeping Okung over Paradis. Paradis has had some stinkers this year but overall he's not been all that bad and I think it's fair to say he was still getting over his injury last year. Okung, while he's also been decent when healthy, hasn't been available for most of the year and has a lot of injury concerns. I'd rather see what Moton has at LT and if that's not meant to be give Daley or a rookie a crack at it.

I can get behind cutting Robby though; he hasn't really impressed me all that much this season. His routes aren't really that impressive and his hands are solid but not really all that hot either. I feel like a lot of his yardage and stats are more a result of Teddy staring him down than anything, and I do think we'll have Teddy in the building for one or two more years but long term Curtis is the better option as he's younger and we'll likely be switching QBs in the near future. He's 24, has a higher ceiling, and could become a homegrown WR2 with DJ. His hands have been great this year and it shows he's still getting better; one of the most common knocks on him was his dropitis yet now it almost seems like he has better hands than Moore and Anderson.

[SmittysLawnGuy]

Never thought I'd say it after last year but the painful truth is, 

Paradis>Samuel.

[Scott12345]

6 hours ago, SmittysLawnGuy said:

Never thought I'd say it after last year but the painful truth is, 

Paradis>Samuel.

You stayed up drinking too late last night...no way I’d keep paradis over Samuel 

and I’d dump okung as well...he can’t stay healthy

we need total revamp of OL

[Zod]

From everything I have heard, Moton is the priority signing. If the small chance CMC is traded somehow, Samuel will be kept as well. 

But 90% likely Moton stays and Samuel leaves. 

[1of10Charnatives]

1 hour ago, Zod said:

From everything I have heard, Moton is the priority signing. If the small chance CMC is traded somehow, Samuel will be kept as well. 

But 90% likely Moton stays and Samuel leaves. 

Bummer. Would be nice to keep both.

[mrcompletely11]

1 hour ago, Zod said:

From everything I have heard, Moton is the priority signing. If the small chance CMC is traded somehow, Samuel will be kept as well. 

But 90% likely Moton stays and Samuel leaves. 

Yep, I wish we would have traded samuels to somebody.  Surely the Packers would have given us a 2nd for him.   He is exactly what Rogers needs.  At least we get a comp pick when he walks

[hepcat]

2 hours ago, Zod said:

From everything I have heard, Moton is the priority signing. If the small chance CMC is traded somehow, Samuel will be kept as well. 

But 90% likely Moton stays and Samuel leaves. 

The time to trade CMC was last year after his massive season before he signed his new contract extension. Too late now, he’s injury prone and super expensive.

[AU-panther]

3 hours ago, Zod said:

From everything I have heard, Moton is the priority signing. If the small chance CMC is traded somehow, Samuel will be kept as well. 

But 90% likely Moton stays and Samuel leaves. 

I agree that its most likely we don't sign both, my only point was that we could if we wanted to.  This idea that we can't afford both is just wrong.

If we don't resign Samuel, and Robby isn't resigned the following year, then I would say WR becomes a pretty big need and I could see us drafting one maybe earlier than a lot of people think.

Speaking of CMC being traded, I've made several references to that lately, mostly in regards to using him to help trade up for a QB, I find it interesting that you are alluding to that also.  Is there some smoke out there?

Whoever we get as a GM will probably play a role in this also, there are definitely some GM types who aren't crazy about investing heavily in the RB position.  Trading CMC as part of a deal to get a QB would probably be met with a lot less resistance among the fan base than trading him on his own.

 

55 minutes ago, hepcat said:

The time to trade CMC was last year after his massive season before he signed his new contract extension. Too late now, he’s injury prone and super expensive.

You are totally correct, his value was definitely at its highest at that point.

 

 

[Davidson Deac II]

15 hours ago, Basbear said:

Lots of thoughts here, I disagree with cutting Robby. Weathery and KK should be gone, though you are focusing on O here. I not big on cutting Teddy either, much better to wait til after 2021 as painful as it is.LG, C, RG, TE and WR 3 to fill for around $10m is painful too. Been trying to tell people, panthers do not have the cap space they think. I think this years rookie pool is close to 10 million and most smart teams carry 10-5 million into the season, otherwise you can not sign anyone worth a dam for injuries. Some guys will not get off the lazy boy for less than 250k in guarantees. Its a problem and most here dont understand it, forget about adding 9 OLmen, 3 TEs. Just isnt enough and every time you cut a starter (ei paradis) you have to replace him. 

I agree, especially irt qb.  And even if we do draft a rookie qb, I would prefer to let him sit for a year while Teddy starts, as the Chiefs did with Mahomes.  Maybe let him play some and see what we have, but let him learn as much as possible before we throw him in.  

 

Side note.  Matt Kalil's horrible contract is finally off the books now.  

[top dawg]

13 hours ago, beo said:

I don't think that I can get behind keeping Okung over Paradis. Paradis has had some stinkers this year but overall he's not been all that bad and I think it's fair to say he was still getting over his injury last year. Okung, while he's also been decent when healthy, hasn't been available for most of the year and has a lot of injury concerns. I'd rather see what Moton has at LT and if that's not meant to be give Daley or a rookie a crack at it.

I can get behind cutting Robby though; he hasn't really impressed me all that much this season. His routes aren't really that impressive and his hands are solid but not really all that hot either. I feel like a lot of his yardage and stats are more a result of Teddy staring him down than anything, and I do think we'll have Teddy in the building for one or two more years but long term Curtis is the better option as he's younger and we'll likely be switching QBs in the near future. He's 24, has a higher ceiling, and could become a homegrown WR2 with DJ. His hands have been great this year and it shows he's still getting better; one of the most common knocks on him was his dropitis yet now it almost seems like he has better hands than Moore and Anderson.

Samuel doesn't have better hands than Anderson or Moore. Teddy's skill set doesn't even mesh well with Anderson's. There were multiple occasions that if he had let the ball loose earlier, as Anderson made his breaks and the window was wider, he could've actually given Anderson a chance to be even more efficient than he was. I think that the same can be said of Moore to a lesser extent. Teddy was probably looking for Samuel more, because Samuel's strengths are more fitting with Teddy's sometimes detrimental penchant for risk aversion. Samuel knows how to get open on those short to intermediate routes against those slot corners probably better than any receiver on the team, and that is Teddy's thing. I don't know if it plays to Samuel's strengths to be on the outside, but Anderson can thrive on the outside and draw coverage away from the short to mid level of the defense, opening it up for the other guys. Mind you, I'm not trying to criticize the receivers' games, just speaking to their strengths and what probably puts them in the best light and position to succeed. I don't think that we've seen any of their best, because Teddy's play does not maximize their skill sets, particularly Anderson's. And yet, they were all productive. Why criticize Anderson and say his production was a product of Teddy staring him down, but then go to praise Moore and Samuel for being on so much better? They all have their pluses and minuses! Teddy is the biggest minus in the whole equation though.