“winning franchises win” says matt rhule (5-10 record)

[GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER]

2 minutes ago, PhillyB said:

yeah i mean i agree with you completely in your evaluation and i sure as hell wish we'd lost but i think the key factor here is that coaches - who get fired all the time for not winning enough games - would have to deliberately reduce their chance of winning games in order to play the long game.

i imagine plenty of them of thought of this before - tanking - but the fact none of them ever do makes me think literally everyone's too worried about racking up Ws to give it pause outside of a team executive's direct order.

i think we have an ownership problem if losing that game yesterday would have made a difference in tepper’s judgment of this coaching staff. i’m inclined to believe that tepper understands the value in losing that game but i suspect it was a personal thing. like beating rivera validates the decision to fire him, similar to how signing a replacement qb validates the decision to cut cam. i could see how the “rivera gets fired and immediately leads washington to the playoffs” story could affect an obscenely wealthy guy used to being praised for making all of the right decisions or w/e

rhule was sold as a long view coach. he’s gonna do it his way, he’s gonna tear it down and rebuild like he did at baylor, blah blah. but it didn’t really feel like a rebuilding year (mostly due to the decision to sign a known quantity in teddy). idk i just don’t think rhule should be that worried about running up the win total in year one. just evaluate all of your guys with real live reps imo. how often do you get that opportunity in the nfl? try some new things, play some new faces imo. it doesn’t have to be a mockery of the game and it doesn’t have to look like you’re doing anything that’s beneath the dignity of the game or whatever 

[GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER]

3 minutes ago, ClawOn said:

If the only great quarterbacks in the league were drafted top 4, this would be worth discussing. 

if you believe in your staff’s ability to evaluate talent then there’s no question that you want a higher pick. people get this reversed all the time. i don’t want some idiot team to luck into my staff’s guy just because they had the fortune of picking ahead of them and their dart landed there. let the bad scouts play late round roulette imo. let them pray they just picked tom brady in the 6th. 1st round picks are very valuable and should be treated as such. the 3rd pick is more valuable than the 9th pick and should be treated as such. it gives you a larger pool of players to select from in every single round. that matters.

[GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER]

there really is no coherent argument for picking in a lower draft slot. it is objectively better to have higher picks. the argument that needs to be made is that it’s worth it to reduce the pool of draftable players in order to go from 4 wins to 5 wins in a totally lost season. the appeals to things that aren’t quantifiable and basically don’t exist (“winning culture”) can be safely ignored. i’m certainly open to the argument that it’s difficult to purposefully lose a game when people are playing and coaching for jobs. but i believe you can do it without asking any individual person to sacrifice anything more than some snaps in one game. and if those guys don’t want to sacrifice those snaps then maybe they should have tried winning some games when it might have mattered.

[Jorgie]

some of yall are really brain dead

[Fox007]

2 hours ago, PhillyB said:

yeah i mean i agree with you completely in your evaluation and i sure as hell wish we'd lost but i think the key factor here is that coaches - who get fired all the time for not winning enough games - would have to deliberately reduce their chance of winning games in order to play the long game.

i imagine plenty of them of thought of this before - tanking - but the fact none of them ever do makes me think literally everyone's too worried about racking up Ws to give it pause outside of a team executive's direct order.

Yea like we could have evaluated Will Grier too, poo like that is perfectly legit and if that MFer actually wasn't poo stain then it'd be a win win if you found out your almost guaranteed to be a scrub Will Grier wasn't a scrub or if he was who he almost certainly is we just lose....team would have literally nothing to lose there and nothing to take away from anyone in anyway whatsoever.

[Fox007]

2 hours ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

there really is no coherent argument for picking in a lower draft slot. it is objectively better to have higher picks. the argument that needs to be made is that it’s worth it to reduce the pool of draftable players in order to go from 4 wins to 5 wins in a totally lost season. the appeals to things that aren’t quantifiable and basically don’t exist (“winning culture”) can be safely ignored. i’m certainly open to the argument that it’s difficult to purposefully lose a game when people are playing and coaching for jobs. but i believe you can do it without asking any individual person to sacrifice anything more than some snaps in one game. and if those guys don’t want to sacrifice those snaps then maybe they should have tried winning some games when it might have mattered.

Like I said in another post where a doofus was like the Bears picked Tribisky so if the Chiefs had that spot they'd have Tribisky but the goober didn't understand that the Chiefs being a smart and good franchise actually just pick Mahommes there instead of Tribisky like the Bears should have done. You'd rather be in position to make that decision rather than just hope a bad team picks bad. I also don't understand wtf is so hard to understand about that lol.

We can't have a winning record and 5 wins instead of 4 is as irrelevant to anything else other than the draft spot as it can get.

[DaveThePanther2008]

I want a QB as bad as the next guy.  This team needs a good QB to run this team. He must have all the tools to be effective. 

Based on the 2020 draft I would say that our current staff (obviously minus Hurney) did a great job evaluating talent.  I have to have faith that they will draft another good class.  Our future QB may not be a first rounder but may be effective enough to run this team.  

I agree building through the draft is important and the higher the pick the better off we would be but losing out to get a higher pick is counterproductive.  Outside of Lawrence all the other remaining QBs have concerns one way or another.  So they are a crapshoot as if they will actually be the answer.  

To address the OP.  5-10 isn't a winning season but does not necessarily mean we aren't building a winning culture.   We fought KC and Green Bay to the wire with a far less talented team.   That doesn't happen if you are not putting these players in the right mindset to win.  Fighting tooth and nail for ever yard, every second of the game.  That's building a winning culture.  If anyone expected the winning culture to be achieved in one season they don't know what it takes to build a team.  Rhule has shown he can achieve this where he took perennial loser Temple and turned them into a darling team in 3 years.  Than did it again in Baylor.   I don't think it's a coincidence that he has something great about him.   While it may take longer than 2 or 3 seasons.  I think next season this team will be trending up.   Once we have a few good drafts, which I am confident we will, you'll see a tough team that won't give in until the final second and instead of losing by one score.  We win by one score or more. That's the winning culture we all want to see. 

I don't know who it will be but we'll have a QB that can take this team to the next level.  Remember when we took a backup QB from New Orleans and had a great run with him.  Jake made this team exciting for many good years. Sad he blew out his arm. 

No matter what is said those that believe tanking is the way to go won't change their minds.  I do find it ironic that many of the Tankers are all onboard with Fields.   Who IMO has major question marks on how great of an NFL QB he'll be. 

[pantherj]

Basically Rhule sees these December games as teaching opportunities for the young guys he's keeping, and rest assured the rest of the trash is going to be dumped quickly as soon as it makes financial sense. Rhule would never pass on a teaching opportunity to have a higher draft pick.  

[OneBadCat]

Guys no one told Dwayne Haskins to throw the ball to the other team. 

[Tinamedina]

5 hours ago, onmyown said:

Sure a lot of emphasis on QB...I get it TB sucks. But, no, the roster is NOT fine, and it’s not a unique situation, there are holes everywhere...what are you talking about? You do realize the chances of making a playoff run with the defense and oline ranked as they are, compared to 20 years of football history, is like....less than 7%?

Nothing in the past 20 years of football suggest that even with a good QB we would compete, unless of course we start breaking records and become on of the 4-6 exceptions of 40 SB teams in 20 years, which by the way only happened on teams with HOF/GOAT qbs...

This isn’t madden the roster is not fine, you won’t plug in a rookie QB and have success especially with your entire oline except shitty Paradis gone next season, again the roster is not fine

No unique situation, you should really just accept this might actually be the same process as a shitty team, one who has averaged 7 wins over 4 years before Rhule even stepped inside the building with the most dead money in the NFL - that will take time to fix 

While I don’t agree about the unique situation I do agree there is absolutely no point beating the Washington team. Should’ve put in Grier. 

Wrong. This defense shut down Mahomes and Rogers bruh. Every game was kept close, and had we kept Pj Walker in we would have won those games. I see what you saying, but no.

[Carolina Mike]

7 hours ago, PhillyB said:

it actually occurred to me i've never done any specific searches for opinion pieces on tanking strategy, and since i'm conflicted i did a quick google and found this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2311552-why-nfl-teams-dont-tank-for-a-better-draft-position.amp.html

 

excellent summary imo - it boils down, beyond the culture-building issue, to being impossible to get enough people on board with it to accomplish it.

 

 

 

The thing about “tanking” to me is.... every player on the roster is not wanting to lose their job. Each has individual reasons to play well. If on tape a player is giving half effort they lose their current job and it effects their next signing. This aspect to me gets over looked when everyone says “Tank” for a draft pick.

[DaveThePanther2008]

12 minutes ago, Carolina Mike said:

The thing about “tanking” to me is.... every player on the roster is not wanting to lose their job. Each has individual reasons to play well. If on tape a player is giving half effort they lose their current job and it effects their next signing. This aspect to me gets over looked when everyone says “Tank” for a draft pick.

Not to mention that if someone plays half ass someone else gets seriously injured. 

[nctarheelreincarnated]

2 hours ago, Carolina Mike said:

The thing about “tanking” to me is.... every player on the roster is not wanting to lose their job. Each has individual reasons to play well. If on tape a player is giving half effort they lose their current job and it effects their next signing. This aspect to me gets over looked when everyone says “Tank” for a draft pick.

Meh. Could just bench your starters, start your backups since the games are meaningless anyway. 

[mrcompletely11]

16 minutes ago, nctarheelreincarnated said:

Meh. Could just bench your starters, start your backups since the games are meaningless anyway. 

Seriously why not start Grier or walker?  I mean bloody hell you absolutely know what teddy gives you. Why not evaluate other players in this lost season.  Makes frigging zero sense.