Shackling your quarterback

[Raskle]

Yes they can make mistakes. But judging how talented this team is. Id say he's pretty good and picking whos the better player. Martin, was matter of being a rookie. No matter how talented phiscally you are. You have to be mentally ready. Let Martin play the rest of the season, and see if he doesnt make the same mistakes Godfry did his first. Theres always the "chance' they are wrong. But when you base it of tons of time to judge him as a player. The "chances' there wrong decrease alot.

Actually, I'd attribue that more to Hurney myself, which is why I don't want him gone like a lot of folks do. I think he's a good GM. Sure, he's made some mistakes, but again.. human.

Again though, if coaches know the best, then why do they get fired? Appeasement of the fanbase? I thought good owners don't listen to the fans? Fox is known for being a players' coach, and many vets sign here cause they know they have the best chance to start within his system. He likes Vets in skill positions over younger guys. Sometimes, I think he takes it too far though. Jake is one of these instances, imo, and Martin being a rook should have no bearing. Munnerlyn, anyone? To be fair though, the Martin example might be one of those times where practice =/= gameplay. But, that would also be an argument for Moore.

Moore got pushed back not becasue of injuries. he had a whole offseason to prove he was better then Mcown and replace him. He did not. Why are they on the team? Typically to help in case of injury/and or to fill in for a short time. The only player meant to really be able to fill in for a long time in a 2nd. We lost that when Mcown went down. And even then there are that many pretty talented 2nd qb. Otherwise they wouldnt be 2nd qb.

Oh, really? Cause IIRC, he hurt his leg in the preseason, and they went out and signed McCown right after that. He was listed as #3 only after his injury, and McCown was kept as the #2 mainly due to how slow he was to heal from it. But, I could be mistaken, as neither of us knows what goes on behind closed doors.

3rd strings are to be the eventuall hier? Go ahead and look around the league and history, are the majority of the leagues thrid string Qb's ever the eventuall replacement? No. Most of them teams dont even plan them ever being that. Why? because third string qb's typically in the vast majority of cases, arent talented enough.There to be very short term fill ins.

Fox would not rick wins and his job. For simple stubbornes.

Using the QB Strings as a progression tool has been around forever. Maybe I'm just old school, but that's how it was done in the past. So your rookies can sit and learn, and eventually you get better or maintain quality as the case may be. Your 2nd string takes over, and either your vet falls to number two, or most likely is not on the team anymore. So, who do you replace your 2nd with first? Most likely the 3rd string, and so the progression goes. Again, why bother to have them on the team if you don't feel they can eventually become a starter for you? Stop gaps can be learning rookies, or they can be aging vets that will not help the conintuity of your team. Which is better in your opinion? Personally, I want the guy who is up and coming myself. Btu to each their own I guess.

I'll assume you meant risk in that last line? Yes, yes he could be risking it. Human nature has shown how friggin stubborn we all are. Case in point, how many arguments are debated over in this forum alone? How many times are people willing to be closed-minded and no matter what evidence is presented by their opposition, they refuse to even acknowledge that the other side could possibly be right? How many folks actually change their minds? This discussion alone has shown enough to support my point there. Fox is not any different, just because he has a large paycheck from his job? How many corporate managers have you known to stick with what works versus changing cause they think change will cause their downfall or that they feel it is not the right move, no matter what evidence you show them? I've known plenty myself, but I guess I could be unlucky.

People are people, no matter what level of society they are placed in. Fox is no different than you or I, and has the same human faults at his core the rest of us do. Personally, I think he's even more stubborn than some of the posters we have here in the Tinderbox, but that's just my take of the guy. Again, to each his own I guess.

[Raskle]

Well, if you don't like the Warner example, how about Romo? He was also undrafted and he has also had some terrible games, especially in the play offs. There have been plenty of QB's through the years that have come back from slumps.

Also, hardly anybody seems to be considering how bad our WR's are. Look at the Eagles, Cowboys and Saints. those teams all have about 3-4 WR's that could beat out Moose for the #2 spot on our team, and I'm not so sure that one or two of those guys couldn't beat out Smitty right now. I mean, how many of these INT's have happened because Jake was trying to force the ball into Smitty when he, and every other receiver was covered and he was desperate to make a play?

Hell, I'm not trying to say that Jake hasn't had a bad season, because he definitely has, but it's not impossible for him to bounce back, and it would help a lot if he had WR's that could consistently get open when they're one on one, or make a tough catch when their team needs them. Right now, Barnidge seems to the the most reliable receiver of the bunch, including Smitty.

OH come on now MC... now you're sounding like the Vick apologists from a few years back. "I mean, he has no one to throw it to out there. The WRs can't get open, they drop his passes, etc." Roddy White sure has looked pretty good since they got Ryan, hasn't he? Jenkins too. Maybe if Jake didn't get em killed almost every time with his late or high throws, they'd be more willing to lay themselves out there every now and then?

Now I'm not even remotely saying it's all Jake's fault -- it's a number of things that are causing our offense to stumble. The OLine giving up pressure the first part of the season, the WRs not catching the ones they should have, the QB playing with a deer in headlights look, etc. But to say the WRs are the root cause? Vick v.2.0 or something?

I guess I just feel he's lost his confidence too much to bounce back to his barely above average normal play. Sometimes, as your Warner example shows, it takes letting a guy go and clicking with another team for him to get his mojo back. Sometimes, it's best of both sides just move on.

[monstercat]

If we had Roddy White, we would have a better record right now. I guarantee you that. Hell, if we had the 2004 version of Moose, we would have a better record.

[carolinanimal]

so its our wrs now? a wr gives you a better record? did we even throw the ball that much for a wr to make a difference?

[carolinanimal]

it is funny how last year how good smith and moose where. and now ALL of a sudden they just suck and it their fault for our offense. its funny how quick you guys are to say that it is easy for steve smith to just all of a sudden suck, but jake delhomme who has never been as high as smith in his position has gotten worse.

[jramsey4]

Well, if you don't like the Warner example, how about Romo? He was also undrafted and he has also had some terrible games, especially in the play offs. There have been plenty of QB's through the years that have come back from slumps.

Also, hardly anybody seems to be considering how bad our WR's are. Look at the Eagles, Cowboys and Saints. those teams all have about 3-4 WR's that could beat out Moose for the #2 spot on our team, and I'm not so sure that one or two of those guys couldn't beat out Smitty right now. I mean, how many of these INT's have happened because Jake was trying to force the ball into Smitty when he, and every other receiver was covered and he was desperate to make a play?

Hell, I'm not trying to say that Jake hasn't had a bad season, because he definitely has, but it's not impossible for him to bounce back, and it would help a lot if he had WR's that could consistently get open when they're one on one, or make a tough catch when their team needs them. Right now, Barnidge seems to the the most reliable receiver of the bunch, including Smitty.

Romo is a terrible example considering IMHO I have never considered him anything more then average. Look at the talent he has been surrounded by his entire starting career and has never accomplished anything except look good in Oct and Nov when it doesn't really matter.

He is like a more athletic Jake, shows moments of greatness then takes long stretches of mediocrity or down right horrible play. Both throughout there careers are two of the most inconsistent QBs in the league.

[monstercat]

so its our wrs now? a wr gives you a better record? did we even throw the ball that much for a wr to make a difference?

Well answer me this...if that was Roddy White instead of DeWayne Jarrett on the receiving end of that long pass Sunday, do you think the results would have been the same? I think it would have been a TD and everybody would be talking about how Jake bounced back and played his best game of the year.

And no, I'm not putting all the blame on the WR's, but Jake doesn't deserve all the blame either. There is plenty of blame to go around. Our RB's are fumbling a lot more this year, Jordan Gross is having a bad season, Kasay is missing FG's that he didn't miss last year, Kenny Moore had a crucial muffed punt in the Buffalo game, the ST's have given up a couple of blocked punts and a handful of big KO returns, the defense struggled mightily early in the year , and at least 2-3 of Delhomme's INT's have been just as much the fault of the WR's as him. There have been many many mistakes by other players this year that have been overlooked by a lot of Panthers fans because Jake is the easiest target.

[outlaw4]

They tried. They brought in several young guys to groom but none of them worked out because either

1. They were terrible draft choices.

2. They were not coached properly

They didn't completely 100% ignore the position. It's just that none of the up-and-comers really worked out. Maybe it's a combination of reasons, but the team did at least try somewhat.

I still have to question their effort, though. I've been advocating to start finding and grooming our next QB since Jake had Tommy John in because:

1. It was unknown if the procedure was going to work at all

2. The effects on his mechanics and being unable to practice for a long time was also an unknown

3. It was a sign that he's not a young buck anymore. You never know if the next hit he takes is his last.

4. The more time given to the young kid to grow and learn behind a vet, the better he'll be once he steps on the field.

Then again, most coaches don't even get to this point in their coaching careers. Many of them get fired by year 3 or 4 because their highly drafted QB they either inherited or got in year 1 turned out to be a bust. The ones that get lucky and either already have or drafted a good QB will get to keep their jobs until that QB no longer works for them and then more likely get canned. Situations where a head coaches stay more than 10 years is likely not to exist anymore.

In short, the more likely scenario is that we don't find the next QB, Fox gets fired, get another coaching job within a year or two, and either we'll tell ourselves "Yeah, that was the right move!" or "OMG DUMBASS PANTHERS WE SHOULD HAD KEPT FOX!!!"

The less likely scenario is that we DO find someone and Foxy will be at least the next Jeff Fisher up to the next Bill Cowher.

(I can dream, can't I?)

[carolinanimal]

first of roddy white is way faster than DJ. so yes i think he would have had that ball. but why is our slowest reciever running that route? i know doesnt deserve all the play, just like he doesnt deserve all the credit either. But that is the nature of the beast of his position. people want to say he is the reason we were 12-4 last year but not the reason we are 3-5 this year.

[panthers55]

In the 2007 offseason we had a QB who had a severed tendon in his throwing arm, had Tommy John surgery and no one knew how he would perform on his return or if he could at all. We needed to draft an eventual if not immediate replacement that upcoming draft.

I am talking about in the offseason before the 2007 season when we were replacing Weinke with Carr. At that point Jake had been injured for 3 games due to a thumb and Weinke had sucked. We brought in Carr as a backup not thinking we had any issues with jake at all. It was after he was injured in 2007 that we were in trouble and by then it was too late. After 2007 even though Jake was rehabbing very well, we brought in McCown as a backup in case Jake couldn't play. He was the replacement whether you like him or not. At that point we believed if Jake couldn't go and McCown wasn't the answer, we would put in Moore. It wasn't until Moore was so bad in the 2008 preseason that folks began to question his ability.

[panthers55]

i get ya rayzor. But P55 was saying we didnt need a qb back then. But my question was did we need a jstewart? we spent 2 1st round picks on rbs that have the shortest life span in the nfl and are the easiest to come by and nothing higher than a 4th round pick on a qb, which is the most important position and can make or break a entire franchise.

Again we didn't need a quarterback until Jake got hurt in 2007. We brought in Carr to replace Weinke so we had two starters to begin 2007. In 2008 we had Moore who looked to be the heir apparent. And we traded for McCown who had plenty of starting experience and played decently for the cardinals but no so much for Miami. Even this year we had McCown and Moore as possibilities and Jake was expected to be better. Sure we needed a succession plan but not an emergency one they thought. With their cap strapped position and no first rounder and such a drop off after the first couple of guys at quarterback, the thought was wait one more year, shore up the DE position given Pepper's situation and get someone next year when there was a larger group to pick from. Hindsight would suggest differently but their draft and free agent strategy seemed pretty sound at the time.

[panthers55]

when is the best time to go shopping, when you're hungry or when you're not?

When you have plenty of money and the selection is good. Hungry or not you don't shop successfully when you don't have money and the shelves are bare.

[carolinanimal]

a first rounder this year sure would help with the qb situation. not even to get some one with it but the trade possibility.

[panthers55]

a first rounder this year sure would help with the qb situation. not even to get some one with it but the trade possibility.

Hurney has shown that if he wants a first rounder he knows how to get one. Whether he pulls the trigger or not is up in the air. He will have to see what other needs he has and prioritize. Hopefully quarterback is high on the list.