Shackling your quarterback

[Kevin Greene]

Up until 2007 there was no need and that year they brought in Carr. Last year we brought in McCown. This year was the first time Jake has played poorly for more than one or two games in a row but they were cap strapped with Peppers, Gross and Gamble and had no first rounder high enough to draft a top guy. Next year we don't have a first rounder either but will likely be more aggressive in finding a replacement. Given how things have gone, Fox and Hurney haven't been the idiots that haters make them out to be,

In the 2007 offseason we had a QB who had a severed tendon in his throwing arm, had Tommy John surgery and no one knew how he would perform on his return or if he could at all. We needed to draft an eventual if not immediate replacement that upcoming draft.

[rayzor]

i get ya rayzor. But P55 was saying we didnt need a qb back then. But my question was did we need a jstewart? we spent 2 1st round picks on rbs that have the shortest life span in the nfl and are the easiest to come by and nothing higher than a 4th round pick on a qb, which is the most important position and can make or break a entire franchise.

when is the best time to go shopping, when you're hungry or when you're not?

[MaineManPanther]

MaineManPanther is gonna die from choking on Jakes cock.

Id argue agianst that, but itd be futlie. After all, you are the expert in all that is cock sucking.

I mean really, if you were to just drop your Bf's cock for one second and pay attention, youd noticed this whole thread I have been not been arguing that Jake is not playing bad (that's goes unsaid) But that Fox is not wrong in keeping him in, instead of Moore. Theres a difference.

[MaineManPanther]

I think we all know no matter what going into next season with Delhomme as the only option at QB is suicide. Anyone that does not agree with that can only have some sort of extreme emotional attachment to Jake that clouds their thinking.

Agreed. He's are best option now. But next year we need stabillity and a better option to at the very very least be able to fall back on.

[carolinanimal]

when is the best time to go shopping, when you're hungry or when you're not?

hey i am agreeing with you! i was just talking about what panthers55 was saying we didnt need a qb back then. i dont get how you can value a rb more than a qb. i am grateful for dwill and jstew but a good qb always trumps a good rb. i just dont understand how fox thinks. :confused:

Two 1's on the rb position and no higher than a 4th on the qb position.

[Raskle]

At the beginning of the year, I said that Jake was playing scared, deer in the headlights look, and all that. I think it's become obvious I was at least partially right. What bothers me now, is that I never thought I'd see a head coach doing the same dance. To me, it looks like Fox is coaching scared. Playing not to lose is the equivalent of "Prevent Defense," and I'll assume it's safe to say we all hate that philosophy.

To all the folks stating that Fox sees the players in practice and knows who is the better option, I ask you this:

Head Coaches see better than anyone else involved, through practice and gametape, who they feel is their best chance to win on Sundays. They look over it all for every position, not just QB, and decide who is better than who. If this is true, and Fox knows how each player plays and each position has the best starter, then please explain to me why coaches get fired in the first place? I mean, since they make the best decisions and know perfectly what will work for their teams to give them the best chance to win, why should they be let go after bad seasons? In Fox's particular case, why was Godfrey starting over Martin, when it's been obvious to everyone here and Stevie Wonder too, that he is the better option at FS?

The answer is simple -- coaches are human. They are not infallible, not perfect, and make human decisions and human mistakes. They make decisions based on emotion, logic, and luck just like the rest of us do. Sometimes they pan out (Jake in 03), sometimes they do not (Jake this year.. The Carr debacle). Sometimes, they are even too stubborn to admit they were wrong, no matter what the personal cost would be to them. No one on this planet can make the claim that they have not done so themselves in a given situation at one time or another.

If Moore, or hell -- even Feeley, are not the answer and not good enough to come in and play, why are they on the roster? Would it not make sense to go find guys who can play, to backup your best chance for success? If they can't do this, and it's not Fox being plain stubborn, then stop wasting roster spots on them. Sorry, but I believe Fox is being stubborn and human, and not wanting to give up on "his guy." It makes no logical sense to keep guys on your team that could not contribute.

Having a player who is 3rd string QB, "just cause you have to have one of those guys", is idiotic at best. A third string QB is the guy who is being groomed to eventually take over the team. If you bump him to #2, then it should be due to progression of his talent. Moore was 2nd string until he got hurt. All of a sudden, he's not good enough to be second string? Why handcuff him to only 1 throw in an entire half of a game? Logic doesn't play a part here.. these are decisions based solely on emotion. Attachment to a QB who took your team (and your coaching career) to a Superbowl appearance six years ago. It's the only explanation for this behavior, which has allowed Jake to be the 30th ranked QB, and leading the league in Interceptions and turnovers, to continue starting without at least being benched for more than a quarter. Anything else just doesn't make sense.

As for Jake, to me it looks like someone should stick a fork in him. I think we need to clean out the QB house and start fresh, if Fox truly believes in the "no better option than Jake" fiasco that's this year. Then again, I'm not certain Fox will even be here next year, and this is the first time I've ever truly felt this way about Fox's chances of sticking around. Don't get me wrong, I'm still 80% positive he will be, cause JR does like him, but not 100% as before. With a new coaching staff, all this and all that goes right out the window.

Sorry for the wall of text, but it's something that's been rattling around the cranium the past few days.

[carolinanimal]

At the beginning of the year, I said that Jake was playing scared, deer in the headlights look, and all that. I think it's become obvious I was at least partially right. What bothers me now, is that I never thought I'd see a head coach doing the same dance. To me, it looks like Fox is coaching scared. Playing not to lose is the equivalent of "Prevent Defense," and I'll assume it's safe to say we all hate that philosophy.

To all the folks stating that Fox sees the players in practice and knows who is the better option, I ask you this:

Head Coaches see better than anyone else involved, through practice and gametape, who they feel is their best chance to win on Sundays. They look over it all for every position, not just QB, and decide who is better than who. If this is true, and Fox knows how each player plays and each position has the best starter, then please explain to me why coaches get fired in the first place? I mean, since they make the best decisions and know perfectly what will work for their teams to give them the best chance to win, why should they be let go after bad seasons? In Fox's particular case, why was Godfrey starting over Martin, when it's been obvious to everyone here and Stevie Wonder too, that he is the better option at FS?

The answer is simple -- coaches are human. They are not infallible, not perfect, and make human decisions and human mistakes. They make decisions based on emotion, logic, and luck just like the rest of us do. Sometimes they pan out (Jake in 03), sometimes they do not (Jake this year.. The Carr debacle). Sometimes, they are even too stubborn to admit they were wrong, no matter what the personal cost would be to them. No one on this planet can make the claim that they have not done so themselves in a given situation at one time or another.

If Moore, or hell -- even Feeley, are not the answer and not good enough to come in and play, why are they on the roster? Would it not make sense to go find guys who can play, to backup your best chance for success? If they can't do this, and it's not Fox being plain stubborn, then stop wasting roster spots on them. Sorry, but I believe Fox is being stubborn and human, and not wanting to give up on "his guy." It makes no logical sense to keep guys on your team that could not contribute.

Having a player who is 3rd string QB, "just cause you have to have one of those guys", is idiotic at best. A third string QB is the guy who is being groomed to eventually take over the team. If you bump him to #2, then it should be due to progression of his talent. Moore was 2nd string until he got hurt. All of a sudden, he's not good enough to be second string? Why handcuff him to only 1 throw in an entire half of a game? Logic doesn't play a part here.. these are decisions based solely on emotion. Attachment to a QB who took your team (and your coaching career) to a Superbowl appearance six years ago. It's the only explanation for this behavior, which has allowed Jake to be the 30th ranked QB, and leading the league in Interceptions and turnovers, to continue starting without at least being benched for more than a quarter. Anything else just doesn't make sense.

As for Jake, to me it looks like someone should stick a fork in him. I think we need to clean out the QB house and start fresh, if Fox truly believes in the "no better option than Jake" fiasco that's this year. Then again, I'm not certain Fox will even be here next year, and this is the first time I've ever truly felt this way about Fox's chances of sticking around. Don't get me wrong, I'm still 80% positive he will be, cause JR does like him, but not 100% as before. With a new coaching staff, all this and all that goes right out the window.

Sorry for the wall of text, but it's something that's been rattling around the cranium the past few days.

That was the best post i have read all day. THat was on the level of mr scot's posts. i have been saying the same thing and no one has answered these questions yet.

[MaineManPanther]

At the beginning of the year, I said that Jake was playing scared, deer in the headlights look, and all that. I think it's become obvious I was at least partially right. What bothers me now, is that I never thought I'd see a head coach doing the same dance. To me, it looks like Fox is coaching scared. Playing not to lose is the equivalent of "Prevent Defense," and I'll assume it's safe to say we all hate that philosophy.

To all the folks stating that Fox sees the players in practice and knows who is the better option, I ask you this:

Head Coaches see better than anyone else involved, through practice and gametape, who they feel is their best chance to win on Sundays. They look over it all for every position, not just QB, and decide who is better than who. If this is true, and Fox knows how each player plays and each position has the best starter, then please explain to me why coaches get fired in the first place? I mean, since they make the best decisions and know perfectly what will work for their teams to give them the best chance to win, why should they be let go after bad seasons? In Fox's particular case, why was Godfrey starting over Martin, when it's been obvious to everyone here and Stevie Wonder too, that he is the better option at FS?

The answer is simple -- coaches are human. They are not infallible, not perfect, and make human decisions and human mistakes. They make decisions based on emotion, logic, and luck just like the rest of us do. Sometimes they pan out (Jake in 03), sometimes they do not (Jake this year.. The Carr debacle). Sometimes, they are even too stubborn to admit they were wrong, no matter what the personal cost would be to them. No one on this planet can make the claim that they have not done so themselves in a given situation at one time or another.

If Moore, or hell -- even Feeley, are not the answer and not good enough to come in and play, why are they on the roster? Would it not make sense to go find guys who can play, to backup your best chance for success? If they can't do this, and it's not Fox being plain stubborn, then stop wasting roster spots on them. Sorry, but I believe Fox is being stubborn and human, and not wanting to give up on "his guy." It makes no logical sense to keep guys on your team that could not contribute.

Having a player who is 3rd string QB, "just cause you have to have one of those guys", is idiotic at best. A third string QB is the guy who is being groomed to eventually take over the team. If you bump him to #2, then it should be due to progression of his talent. Moore was 2nd string until he got hurt. All of a sudden, he's not good enough to be second string? Why handcuff him to only 1 throw in an entire half of a game? Logic doesn't play a part here.. these are decisions based solely on emotion. Attachment to a QB who took your team (and your coaching career) to a Superbowl appearance six years ago. It's the only explanation for this behavior, which has allowed Jake to be the 30th ranked QB, and leading the league in Interceptions and turnovers, to continue starting without at least being benched for more than a quarter. Anything else just doesn't make sense.

As for Jake, to me it looks like someone should stick a fork in him. I think we need to clean out the QB house and start fresh, if Fox truly believes in the "no better option than Jake" fiasco that's this year. Then again, I'm not certain Fox will even be here next year, and this is the first time I've ever truly felt this way about Fox's chances of sticking around. Don't get me wrong, I'm still 80% positive he will be, cause JR does like him, but not 100% as before. With a new coaching staff, all this and all that goes right out the window.

Sorry for the wall of text, but it's something that's been rattling around the cranium the past few days.

Yes they can make mistakes. But judging how talented this team is. Id say he's pretty good and picking whos the better player. Martin, was matter of being a rookie. No matter how talented phiscally you are. You have to be mentally ready. Let Martin play the rest of the season, and see if he doesnt make the same mistakes Godfry did his first. Theres always the "chance' they are wrong. But when you base it of tons of time to judge him as a player. The "chances' there wrong decrease alot.

Moore got pushed back not becasue of injuries. he had a whole offseason to prove he was better then Mcown and replace him. He did not. Why are they on the team? Typically to help in case of injury/and or to fill in for a short time. The only player meant to really be able to fill in for a long time in a 2nd. We lost that when Mcown went down. And even then there are that many pretty talented 2nd qb. Otherwise they wouldnt be 2nd qb.

3rd strings are to be the eventuall hier? Go ahead and look around the league and history, are the majority of the leagues thrid string Qb's ever the eventuall replacement? No. Most of them teams dont even plan them ever being that. Why? because third string qb's typically in the vast majority of cases, arent talented enough.There to be very short term fill ins.

Fox would not rick wins and his job. For simple stubbornes.

[monstercat]

The thing is, so many of you are assuming that Jake Delhomme can never be good again, and I just don't buy that notion. It's not like he's the first NFL QB to ever go through a slump, and he won't be the last either. Many of them have gone through bad stretches and still had good careers, Kurt Warner being a perfect example. Have you all forgotten that the Cardinals drafted Matt Leinert to take his place? How did that work out?

Honestly, I don't think Delhomme was worrying about throwing INT's Sunday, whether his coach was or not. It's obvious to me that Jake wanted to throw the ball and had plenty confidence that he could win that game.

[MaineManPanther]

The thing is, so many of you are assuming that Jake Delhomme can never be good again, and I just don't buy that notion. It's not like he's the first NFL QB to ever go through a slump, and he won't be the last either. Many of them have gone through bad stretches and still had good careers, Kurt Warner being a perfect example. Have you all forgotten that the Cardinals drafted Matt Leinert to take his place? How did that work out?

Honestly, I don't think Delhomme was worrying about throwing INT's Sunday, whether his coach was or not. It's obvious to me that Jake wanted to throw the ball and had plenty confidence that he could win that game.

True. I think theres alot better chance for Delomme to get back to atleast being somewhat decent then is for Moore do be that much better.

[Snake]

The thing is, so many of you are assuming that Jake Delhomme can never be good again, and I just don't buy that notion. It's not like he's the first NFL QB to ever go through a slump, and he won't be the last either. Many of them have gone through bad stretches and still had good careers, Kurt Warner being a perfect example. Have you all forgotten that the Cardinals drafted Matt Leinert to take his place? How did that work out?

Honestly, I don't think Delhomme was worrying about throwing INT's Sunday, whether his coach was or not. It's obvious to me that Jake wanted to throw the ball and had plenty confidence that he could win that game.

Your right about Jake not having any problem with the confidence in himself but that fact still remains that his release is just bad.... Even last game he was throwing the ball way too high and leaving his WRs out in no mans land to take big hits or tip the ball to the other team. Thats what causes turnovers. Its not just as simple as a slump he need someone to fix his release of the ball.

True. I think theres alot better chance for Delhomme to get back to atleast being somewhat decent then is for Moore do be that much better.

Moore at this point has more accuracy and less arm power. His decision making is right along with Jakes. Take what you want from that.

[rayzor]

so you guys pull warner out again as an example. awesome. since it happened with warner it will happen with jake so we should plan accordingly? sorry. warner is a once in a lifetime story. he went further than jake ever has and is twice the QB that jake could ever be.

jake is done or is most likely done. there is a small chance that jake could be released from here, find a role as a backup QB somewhere, get a chance to start, and then take his team to a superbowl....but i think that story has already been done.

the fact that we have done nothing, apparently, to prepare for life after jake shows a huge amount of incompetence or stubbornness.

face it, there is no win here.

you don't go with a 30 something old QB without having someone ready to take over or someone who you are planning on taking over.

the whole situation has fail written all over it. either fox is screwing up or the FO (fox being a huge part of that) screwed up in not being ready for this. they have had several years to get this right and they haven't.

[rayzor]

Your right about Jake not having any problem with the confidence in himself but that fact still remains that his release is just bad.... Even last game he was throwing the ball way too high and leaving his WRs out in no mans land to take big hits or tip the ball to the other team. Thats what causes turnovers. Its not just as simple as a slump he need someone to fix his release of the ball.

Moore at this point has more accuracy and less arm power. His decision making is right along with Jakes. Take what you want from that.

they brought someone in to fix that then decided to stop because it made him think too much.

i agree with your assessment of moore, btw. i think he can get better in all areas given a chance to grow on the field in real game situations.

[monstercat]

Well, if you don't like the Warner example, how about Romo? He was also undrafted and he has also had some terrible games, especially in the play offs. There have been plenty of QB's through the years that have come back from slumps.

Also, hardly anybody seems to be considering how bad our WR's are. Look at the Eagles, Cowboys and Saints. those teams all have about 3-4 WR's that could beat out Moose for the #2 spot on our team, and I'm not so sure that one or two of those guys couldn't beat out Smitty right now. I mean, how many of these INT's have happened because Jake was trying to force the ball into Smitty when he, and every other receiver was covered and he was desperate to make a play?

Hell, I'm not trying to say that Jake hasn't had a bad season, because he definitely has, but it's not impossible for him to bounce back, and it would help a lot if he had WR's that could consistently get open when they're one on one, or make a tough catch when their team needs them. Right now, Barnidge seems to the the most reliable receiver of the bunch, including Smitty.