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Hurney Scks ...Got it.. How do we fix it

DaveThePanther2008

By DaveThePanther2008,
in Carolina Panthers

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1 hour ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

I could agree with that but you can bet your ass that Rhule's input has much more impact that Hurney.

Rhule has certain traits he wants on this team. Each player we selected early on met those traits.  

Stay in denial.

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

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1 hour ago, SizzleBuzz said:

There is zero chance Tepper is sitting back and letting Hurndog make whatever calls he chooses...

...it's a collective process and Tepper-Rhule-Hurney get to the decisions together.

That's how it works in Tepper's world.

Watching a TV series about a billionaire on Showtime does not give you inside info on Tepper and the Panthers

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DaveThePanther2008 Grand Master

DaveThePanther2008

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16 minutes ago, Moo Daeng said:

I don't see Hurney having much say in decision making as an individual as it is. Rhule and company are building the roster as they see fit. Suleiman is overseeing contracts.  It doesn't seem the GM in this structure has a huge role.

It was clear to me that was the case in the 2020 draft.  Brown is a freak of nature and an obvious 1st round pick. YGM is a highly athletic DE and as most rookie DE has had a good start but has many things to learn but clearly going to be a key part of our defense.  Rhule loves Chinn's versatility and was right behind Simmons (or so they say).  I expect Pride to be a better CB next year. 

The remaining picks outside of Robinson have contributed.  Roy being a player that played for Rhule in Baylor and our 7th Round pick has seen some action.   I don't know any draft we've had where 6 of 7 picks saw action in their rookie season.

Each of these players fit Rhule's style.  This IMO is the justification that Rhule was key in these picks.  No crazy trades for a player no one wanted other than Hurney. 

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SizzleBuzz Grand Master

SizzleBuzz

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10 hours ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

I could agree with that but you can bet your ass that Rhule's input has much more impact that Hurney.

Rhule has certain traits he wants on this team. Each player we selected early on met those traits.  

I certainly don't take issue with your first sentence --- that said, both have a seat of importance at the table.

The poster I was responding to said "Rhule wanted to trade down, but Hurney overruled him"...

There's zero chance a scenario like that would ever take place in Tepper's world.

 

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SizzleBuzz Grand Master

SizzleBuzz

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10 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Watching a TV series about a billionaire on Showtime does not give you inside info on Tepper and the Panthers

No worries, I can understand why you may have doubts --- let me clear it up for you...

For Jerry the team was a profit center and his path to serious wealth (he was already wealthy by most standards before he bought the team, but that increased dramatically with his Panthers investment) --- profits first, wins somewhere down the line in Jerry's world.

For Tepper this is a hobby...and guys wired like him don't like to lose, hobby or otherwise.  He has no partners and it really doesn't matter if the team makes or loses money, $50,000,000 is literally rounding error for this guy...he has 1 key goal --- win.

There seems to be very little understanding about firms like Appaloosa are managed by guys like Tepper, and how this experience is impacting the way Panthers are currently being run --- for those who might be interested here's the color:

Funds like Appaloosa (and Axe Capital for those of you may have seen Billions) are typically quite flat and organized in a simple pod-like structure.  Pods are generally industry-based (financials, tech, industrials, energy, etc.).

These pods of investment professionals are responsible for generating the returns (think wins & losses) that define a fund and determine its success, or lack thereof.  Think of these folks as the football operations side of the business -- the part that generates the wins & losses.

Mature funds also have some HR people, investor relations folks etc, and often a COO-type (Wags) to manage non-trading/investment related aspects of the business.  Think of this part as Tom Glick, the ticket "concierges" some of you have mentioned, the game day operations folks, etc...put another way, not related to on-field football ops.

Virtually all the successful funds also have a founder/owner who is present daily, constantly monitoring just about everything, and acting on behalf of the fund...just like Axe.  Tepper/Appaloosa, Loeb/Third Point, Einhorn/Greenlight, Cohen/SAC, Ganek/Level Global, Balyasny/Balyasny AM,  Englander/Millenium,  etc...are good real-life examples.

These guys are all super-type-A workaholics with massive brainpower and joking aside, always the smartest guy in the room (except when they are all in the same room!) --- and all are control freaks.  (well Izzy is actually pretty laid back, but still a control freak)

Within the pods there are really only 3 job functions --- PM (Mafee & Dollar Bill), analyst (Taylor), and trader.  That's it.

PM's have varying amounts of authorization in terms of how much firm capital they manage (referred to as a "pad") within their pod -- analysts and traders have no discretion/authorization at all, their job is gather, analyze, and share information, and execute when directed to.  (to be fair, on rare occasions some analysts are given a small pad to manage at their discretion just to test them)

While most PM's do have a degree of discretion virtually none will ever make a trade that will materially impact the overall returns/worth of the firm without fully vetting it with and getting buy-in from the founder/owner (Tepper) --- wrong without vetting/buy-in from Tepper, you're dead.  Wrong with the full approval/partnership from Tepper, you can live to fight another day.  PM's do trade around existing positions and make other smaller trades at their own discretion, but these are not material to the firm on the whole.

Again, no significant amount capital at Appaloosa is/was ever put to work without Tepper's explicit approval --- he's overlaid the same operating model onto the Panthers.

Within the Panthers there is only one industry-vertical (football players & coaches) and there are only 2 PM's, and they are co-PM's...Hurney & Rhule.

Hurney & Rhule are free to trade around certain existing positions (fringe players, special teams players, etc) and fiddle with other non-material trades (practice squad, strength coach) but they will never make a material trade (higher draft pick, cut the long-term QB, commit $33M guaranteed to the new QB, big contract to new O.C., etc) without the full participation of and approval from Tepper --- this is the model that made him one of the wealthiest men in the great United States of America and it's one he's sticking with.

The balance of the football operations are people (coaches, scouts, trainers ,etc) under Hurney & Rhule who are functioning as analysts (Brady could be a Junior-PM)...sucking in, synthesizing, and packaging up information for Tepper & Hurney & Rhule to use in the decision making process.  The process is collaborative and some of the analysts have a seat at the table with Tepper/Hurney/Rhule --- but Tepper always retains veto power.  (the Tre Boston contract is troublesome, how that one made it through the vetting process is perplexing...possibly Tepper was on his honeymoon)

As for Tepper himself, he's different, so don't compare him to meddling owners like Jerry Jones.  While he's not particularly good looking Tepper's analytical skills run circles around Theo Epstein and there's also the f*** you money that's a party to the situation, don't underestimate the power of said money :shades: (keep an eye on the Metropolitans, genius new sheriff in town there too)

From a football operations and wins/losses perspective I believe Tepper is teeing this thing up for a loooooooong stretch of very very successful on-field results...

...just be patient.

The business/sponsorship side of the operation is more questionable but the reality of it is even if that doesn't go well he has the checkbook to handle it --- time will tell.


"I am not uncertain."

             -- "Dollar" Bill Stearn --
 

 

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Car123

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2 hours ago, SizzleBuzz said:

I certainly don't take issue with your first sentence --- that said, both have a seat of importance at the table.

The poster I was responding to said "Rhule wanted to trade down, but Hurney overruled him"...

There's zero chance a scenario like that would ever take place in Tepper's world.

 

Did Joe Person completely fabricate that report?

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SizzleBuzz Grand Master

SizzleBuzz

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1 hour ago, Car123 said:

Did Joe Person completely fabricate that report?

Do you believe Joe Person is correct 100% of the time?

When the sale of the Panthers was taking place Joe Person was in fact wrong pretty much 100% of the time.

If Joe Person said such a thing (Hurndog "overruled" Rhule) I believe Joe was wrong...

...that's not how Tepper conducts business. 

(beware of allowing Joe Person to serve as your compass, his ability to indicate true north is pitiful)

 

 

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