Panther defense most conservative in the league.

[panthers55]

10 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

It's a leap to say he has the players to do better. We are still a very weak defense talent-wise. 

Again the very players he currently has do better based on the scheme.  It isn't whether we will do better with better talent, that is a no brainier.  The current question is whether he is using the current players to their best ability based on the scheme he is currently employing. I think he isn't based on actual results while those giving him a pass are making generalities like our rookies are holding us back and just the opposite is true. Of course we need more talent but a coordinators job is to use a scheme which maximizes your talent, not bring your prevent defense that worked in college and use it in the NFL making a weak secondary for example have to hold for 6 or 7 seconds instead of applying pressure to help them only have to hold for a few seconds.Frankly it seems pretty obvious.

[kungfoodude]

47 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Again the very players he currently has do better based on the scheme.  It isn't whether we will do better with better talent, that is a no brainier.  The current question is whether he is using the current players to their best ability based on the scheme he is currently employing. I think he isn't based on actual results while those giving him a pass are making generalities like our rookies are holding us back and just the opposite is true. Of course we need more talent but a coordinators job is to use a scheme which maximizes your talent, not bring your prevent defense that worked in college and use it in the NFL making a weak secondary for example have to hold for 6 or 7 seconds instead of applying pressure to help them only have to hold for a few seconds.Frankly it seems pretty obvious.

Eh....guys like Donte and Troy Pride get beat pretty easily in man coverage. The same can be said of our safeties. I can't agree that it is solely the scheme. We have some objectively terrible players on the defense that do actually drag it down and limit what we can reasonably do against certain opponents.

[Snake]

7 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

I get the "best effort" argument but then we see a game like versus Minnesota where we appeared to blitz more for the bulk of the game(to a lot of success) and then got cold feet in the final few minutes, it does seem to defy that. Actually, let me put together some game by game blitzing stats and see what it looks like.

Yeah that was completely dumb and poor coaching. Im just stating the reason we probably run such a basic and conservative defense. Hopefully we get better on that side of the ball talent wise and open up more. I really can't state how bad Rivera and Hurney screwed this team up. So I can't really blame the guy picking up the pieces until he gets his team. 

[panthers55]

33 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Eh....guys like Donte and Troy Pride get beat pretty easily in man coverage. The same can be said of our safeties. I can't agree that it is solely the scheme. We have some objectively terrible players on the defense that do actually drag it down and limit what we can reasonably do against certain opponents.

So instead we sit back in passive zone and let one receiver in the middle of 5 defenders catch the ball uncontested ? How is that better? 

[LinvilleGorge]

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

Again the very players he currently has do better based on the scheme.  It isn't whether we will do better with better talent, that is a no brainier.  The current question is whether he is using the current players to their best ability based on the scheme he is currently employing. I think he isn't based on actual results while those giving him a pass are making generalities like our rookies are holding us back and just the opposite is true. Of course we need more talent but a coordinators job is to use a scheme which maximizes your talent, not bring your prevent defense that worked in college and use it in the NFL making a weak secondary for example have to hold for 6 or 7 seconds instead of applying pressure to help them only have to hold for a few seconds.Frankly it seems pretty obvious.

You keep saying this but the stats posted earlier suggested your observations on that might not be correct.

[kungfoodude]

41 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

So instead we sit back in passive zone and let one receiver in the middle of 5 defenders catch the ball uncontested ? How is that better? 

Oh I didn't say it is better. I am just saying your characterisation that it is solely coaching and not players is just not true. The scheme could be better(see Vikings late) and the players will HAVE to be better. 

I think Snow is generally doing a pretty good job with the tools he has. Not a great job but far from a bad job.

[panthers55]

45 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Oh I didn't say it is better. I am just saying your characterisation that it is solely coaching and not players is just not true. The scheme could be better(see Vikings late) and the players will HAVE to be better. 

I think Snow is generally doing a pretty good job with the tools he has. Not a great job but far from a bad job.

I didn't say it was only coaching, what I said was that he is not doing enough with the guys he has in response to the posters who say it is personnel and he is doing the best he can and this is the best scheme for our personnel. I don't agree with that at all and have pointed out where it isn't true. But let's be real here, how did Whitehead become the best option to replace Luke? Or even serviceable? And I always wanted Donte in the slot not outside. I really hated losing Bradberry.  Our talent is down and a lot of the guys who will be better are young and inexperienced. So yes we will make mistakes and have blown coverages. It goes with the territory. But I can live with that better than stopping no one and thinking that is effective.  Against Tampa and Kansas City we made them punt something like a combined 2 times.  

My point is you play to your teams strengths and one of ours is we have guys who were disrespected, underused, have something to prove, are young dumb and bulletproof  That lends itself to an aggressive defense. And it instills a defensive mentality to keep pounding, dictating to the offense instead of the bend but don't break yoga scheme where you get bent over and pounded.

Being an admirer of the Jim Johnson tree and McDermott, this prevent defense kills me. I just have a hard time ameliorating Rhule's physical take it to them aggressive style on 4th down with Snow's die by a thousand cuts torture we suffer when it matters.  Especially when we have been more effective when we mix up our blitzes and rushes by putting 6 folks on the line and actually confusing the offense instead of being the most predictable defense in the league. I get the defense won't be great but let's unleash them and see what happens. Unless heaven forbid this 3-3-5 continues and we play base prevent.

[Snake]

7 hours ago, panthers55 said:

So instead we sit back in passive zone and let one receiver in the middle of 5 defenders catch the ball uncontested ? How is that better? 

With how poor of our talent level is blitzing isn't going to be much better. To put it bluntly our back 7 just sucks. That's what Rivera and Hurney built. Not only did we underachieve but we let talent walk right out the door to make the team worse. Our best seasons were under a guy who had a personality of a cactus and is now nose diving the Giants into oblivion. If that guy could get better results than Hurney I'm not sure why Tepper is keeping him around. That's absolutely not a guy who builds a winning culture. Maybe Tepper doesn't have the Brass balls we all thought he did. 

[panthers55]

56 minutes ago, Snake said:

With how poor of our talent level is blitzing isn't going to be much better. To put it bluntly our back 7 just sucks. That's what Rivera and Hurney built. Not only did we underachieve but we let talent walk right out the door to make the team worse. Our best seasons were under a guy who had a personality of a cactus and is now nose diving the Giants into oblivion. If that guy could get better results than Hurney I'm not sure why Tepper is keeping him around. That's absolutely not a guy who builds a winning culture. Maybe Tepper doesn't have the Brass balls we all thought he did. 

Teaching the defenders to be aggressive and go after the ball pays off in multiple ways. It instills a mentality that is important for any defense. It isn't about whether we have all the talent we need but what are we teaching our young guys and what culture are we creating defensively. So the scheme absolutely matters regardless of the immediate results.

[Call Me James]

The staff built this team to run their schemes... 

[panthers55]

8 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

You keep saying this but the stats posted earlier suggested your observations on that might not be correct.

Because the posted stats don't cover what I am talking about. Looking simply at numbers of blitzes and their result only account for a small part of the  much bigger issue I am bringing up. It doesn't talk situation and circumstance such as third down and long, in the redzone for example or that we blitz the least of anyone so differences get skewed.

Beyond that there is the whole 3 man rush versus the 4 man rush and effectiveness when bringing pressure. Or lining up 6 guys on the line like we did in Detroit and effectively disguise our rushes so when we bring only 4 but all from one side, we get there without having to blitz. The problem is rushing 3 is too easy to block and exploit. And you can't bring pressure effectively. So why do it at all. Except you used it in college and now want to install it here.  You hate a passive offense, I hate a passive defense. We should be on the same side.

[Snake]

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

Teaching the defenders to be aggressive and go after the ball pays off in multiple ways. It instills a mentality that is important for any defense. It isn't about whether we have all the talent we need but what are we teaching our young guys and what culture are we creating defensively. So the scheme absolutely matters regardless of the immediate results.

Talent wins in the NFL and if you don't have it you don't win. Our players don't give up and when faced with equal talent you see good results like against the lions. Snow will probably never be as aggressive as McD was or Rivera. Still his defense hasn't allowed too many blow out games either. Sometimes small ball is what you have to play when the other team out matches you every game. I can also promise you giving up 40 points a game by taking players out of poor coverage who don't really have the talent to blitz effectively will set the right culture either. Snow has shown some creative stunts and has plugged an otherwise leaky defense that was leaky even before Bradbury and Luke left. I get we are not winning but the defense keeps us in games and that's about all you can ask from a unit full of Rookies and practice squad personal that Hurney gave Snow. Another question is why can't Teddy Two gloves win the game when a wide open WR is there in the end zone or why does the offense keep passing while not running out the clock?That's a bigger question than why are we not being more aggressive on defense. 

[panthers55]

7 hours ago, Snake said:

Talent wins in the NFL and if you don't have it you don't win. Our players don't give up and when faced with equal talent you see good results like against the lions. Snow will probably never be as aggressive as McD was or Rivera. Still his defense hasn't allowed too many blow out games either. Sometimes small ball is what you have to play when the other team out matches you every game. I can also promise you giving up 40 points a game by taking players out of poor coverage who don't really have the talent to blitz effectively will set the right culture either. Snow has shown some creative stunts and has plugged an otherwise leaky defense that was leaky even before Bradbury and Luke left. I get we are not winning but the defense keeps us in games and that's about all you can ask from a unit full of Rookies and practice squad personal that Hurney gave Snow. Another question is why can't Teddy Two gloves win the game when a wide open WR is there in the end zone or why does the offense keep passing while not running out the clock?That's a bigger question than why are we not being more aggressive on defense. 

So if you lose because you limit the bleeding, that is a good thing? That is what you seem to be saying. We stop no one on 3rd down and keep our own offense off the field  And it isn't that Snow can't scheme or adjust more than situationally he has done a poor job disguising what he is doing and is very predictable and easily exploited. It is one thing to lack talent, it is quite another to have a poor scheme that is very simplistic and predictable that is easily exploited by just about everyone we played outside of Detroit when we changed our scheme. 

The biggest problem with our offense is that the defense never gets off the field. We are 31st in stopping opponents on 3rd down. When you give up 10-15 play drives all day your offense is not getting enough opportunities. 

[Moo Daeng]

Too early to know for sure but a safe assumption would be that it's a result of the inexperience of the roster. In a related note Roy Williams talked this week about not double teaming because they don't have the experience to do so and haven't executed it well in practice.

This write up would suggest that he would love to blitz if the coverages can be sound. 

https://theriotreport.com/phil-snow-three-safety-look-panthers-defense-breakdown/