The one player we absolutely cannot lose this offseason.....

[MasterAwesome]

41 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

The point, is you recognize your homegrown talent, and flash enough money in front of them a year before they get to free agency.

James should have been extended 2 years ago, and Moton last offseason.

For 2nd rounders...who have made SOME money, but not a ton, flash guarantees and big $$$ in front of their faces and they likely will take the bait vs. trying to make it through yet another season uninjured or without having a slump.

Our GM isn't smart enough to do that.

Your visceral disdain towards Hurney is well documented, which makes it hard to have a rational, levelheaded discussion with you.   You have basically already formed your conclusion that Hurney sucks (which is fine and perhaps valid), but you often support that conclusion with some shoddy, highly speculative, baseless premises.  In this case for example, "Marty never thought to offer discount contracts to any of our homegrown talent".  Huh?  Links? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't...to suggest one way or the other as a random uninformed fan is delusional.  If there are any unknowns leading up to an action (or inaction in this case), you seem to apply the absolute most uncharitable possible explanation when it comes to Hurney, when there are plenty of other reasonable explanations.

Is our GM too dumb to do that, or are players too smart and disciplined to accept low-ball contracts when they've been playing at an elite level throughout their entire rookie contracts?  Your suggestion of just dangling a few dollars in front of them and assuming those suckers will bite seems pretty demeaning and condescending.  Not to mention, they have professional agents in their ear who may attempt to dissuade these young men from making these kinds of impulsive decisions.

[Mr. Scot]

33 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

You essentially seem to be alluding to hometown discounts, which I don't think has any real evidence of actually being a thing that happens.  Otherwise "playing hardball" doesn't really work when you can just go get more money somewhere else.

Not talking about hometown discounts. Just talking about not overpaying.

Teams that draft and build well can get away with that because they can replace you.

[Ricky Spanish]

1 hour ago, thefuzz said:

The point, is you recognize your homegrown talent, and flash enough money in front of them a year before they get to free agency.

James should have been extended 2 years ago, and Moton last offseason.

For 2nd rounders...who have made SOME money, but not a ton, flash guarantees and big $$$ in front of their faces and they likely will take the bait vs. trying to make it through yet another season uninjured or without having a slump.

Our GM isn't smart enough to do that.

To be fair to Hurney, he hasn't had to do negotiations like that with 2nd+ round talent since W was in office... Probably rusty.

[thefuzz]

38 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Your visceral disdain towards Hurney is well documented, which makes it hard to have a rational, levelheaded discussion with you.   You have basically already formed your conclusion that Hurney sucks (which is fine and perhaps valid), but you often support that conclusion with some shoddy, highly speculative, baseless premises.  In this case for example, "Marty never thought to offer discount contracts to any of our homegrown talent".  Huh?  Links? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't...to suggest one way or the other as a random uninformed fan is delusional.  If there are any unknowns leading up to an action (or inaction in this case), you seem to apply the absolute most uncharitable possible explanation when it comes to Hurney, when there are plenty of other reasonable explanations.

Is our GM too dumb to do that, or are players too smart and disciplined to accept low-ball contracts when they've been playing at an elite level throughout their entire rookie contracts?  Your suggestion of just dangling a few dollars in front of them and assuming those suckers will bite seems pretty demeaning and condescending.  Not to mention, they have professional agents in their ear who may attempt to dissuade these young men from making these kinds of impulsive decisions.

Have you heard of articles mentioning us trying to work something out with James 2 years ago?

Did you hear about them last season with Moton?

At the very least, we should have been hearing about the team trying to get deals done.

[thefuzz]

41 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Your visceral disdain towards Hurney is well documented, which makes it hard to have a rational, levelheaded discussion with you.   You have basically already formed your conclusion that Hurney sucks (which is fine and perhaps valid), but you often support that conclusion with some shoddy, highly speculative, baseless premises.  In this case for example, "Marty never thought to offer discount contracts to any of our homegrown talent".  Huh?  Links? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't...to suggest one way or the other as a random uninformed fan is delusional.  If there are any unknowns leading up to an action (or inaction in this case), you seem to apply the absolute most uncharitable possible explanation when it comes to Hurney, when there are plenty of other reasonable explanations.

Is our GM too dumb to do that, or are players too smart and disciplined to accept low-ball contracts when they've been playing at an elite level throughout their entire rookie contracts?  Your suggestion of just dangling a few dollars in front of them and assuming those suckers will bite seems pretty demeaning and condescending.  Not to mention, they have professional agents in their ear who may attempt to dissuade these young men from making these kinds of impulsive decisions.

Also, to follow up, this is insulting to the player.  My point, is you can get talent to take a little less a year before free agency, rather than the year of free agency...or in this particular situation the off season you become a free agent.

[Peon Awesome]

1 hour ago, thefuzz said:

The point, is you recognize your homegrown talent, and flash enough money in front of them a year before they get to free agency.

James should have been extended 2 years ago, and Moton last offseason.

For 2nd rounders...who have made SOME money, but not a ton, flash guarantees and big $$$ in front of their faces and they likely will take the bait vs. trying to make it through yet another season uninjured or without having a slump.

Our GM isn't smart enough to do that.

I think my master stated it perfectly well, but without sitting in the negotiating room, it's very silly to pass some all-knowing judgment. Also, look across the league. How many players outperforming their rookie contracts get signed to bargain second contracts? Using all 32 teams, name 10. That should be super easy since any GM without their head up their ass should be able to negotiate 2 to 3. I'm asking for less than 1 player for every 3 teams. Hell it's hard to think of even a handful in the entire league. Unless you're a running back with a short shelf life or another position prone to injury like QB, taking a big discount 2 years before free agency rarely makes sense. And those positions are the main examples, which don't even look great on paper: Wentz, Goff, Zeke, Gurley, CMC. Even they got contracts in line with the top players at their position so even in those examples, you're not getting a discount. The idea of an early discount is a myth that armchair GMs come up with. Agents don't want their players to forego free agency and the corresponding bidding war without a huge ransom especially if they play a position less prone to injuries that could end their careers. So should we have paid Moton $16 million per year starting last year, or pay him his rookie contract and offer the same amount this year plus whatever inflation rate (half a million more)? Cause usually that's the question you're asking yourself.

[Mr. Scot]

14 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

To be fair to Hurney, he hasn't had to do negotiations like that with 2nd+ round talent since W was in office... Probably rusty.

Honest Question: Does anybody still believe Marty can build a winning roster?

Some might say "with Matt Rhule's help", but if Rhule is doing the heavy lifting, what do you need Marty for?

[thefuzz]

29 minutes ago, Peon Awesome said:

I think my master stated it perfectly well, but without sitting in the negotiating room, it's very silly to pass some all-knowing judgment. Also, look across the league. How many players outperforming their rookie contracts get signed to bargain second contracts? Using all 32 teams, name 10. That should be super easy since any GM without their head up their ass should be able to negotiate 2 to 3. I'm asking for less than 1 player for every 3 teams. Hell it's hard to think of even a handful in the entire league. Unless you're a running back with a short shelf life or another position prone to injury like QB, taking a big discount 2 years before free agency rarely makes sense. And those positions are the main examples, which don't even look great on paper: Wentz, Goff, Zeke, Gurley, CMC. Even they got contracts in line with the top players at their position so even in those examples, you're not getting a discount. The idea of an early discount is a myth that armchair GMs come up with. Agents don't want their players to forego free agency and the corresponding bidding war without a huge ransom especially if they play a position less prone to injuries that could end their careers. So should we have paid Moton $16 million per year starting last year, or pay him his rookie contract and offer the same amount this year plus whatever inflation rate (half a million more)? Cause usually that's the question you're asking yourself.

Which part about "flashing guarantee's and big $$$ in front of their faces" is asking for a bargain?  You are not comprehending what I'm saying, and have been saying.

You are attempting to put words in my mouth.  I'm not sitting here saying that every player wants to stay where he was drafted, what I'm saying is that it seems that we have not, and did not try to extend Moton before the start of the last year of his rookie deal, and the same can be said for James.

We are talking about team building here.  We drafted Moton and James, both were very good for us (many on this board do not believe that to be the case due to no Pro Bowls which is dumb), both have been healthy, neither have been locker room issues, and both were 2nd round draft picks that have seen very "little" money in the NFL.  Those are the ideal players that you want to extend, and hopefully before the start of the last year of their deal.

Let's not even talk about positional value.  OT and CB are two of the hardest positions to fill in the NFL and we did it, only to waive goodbye due to poor long term thinking.  Personally, I'm not a fan of extending LB's or RB's until you absolutely have to due to the very high risk of injury, I DO NOT feel the same about CB, and especially not about OT, they are simply too valuable.

 

 

[WarPanthers89]

38 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Honest Question: Does anybody still believe Marty can build a winning roster?

Some might say "with Matt Rhule's help", but if Rhule is doing the heavy lifting, what do you need Marty for?

I had little to no faith before. If Moton walks and we get nothing for him I will call for his head which it sounds like the path we are going down. I get he will cost a ton but we are literally investing zip into the O line currently. It seems like we never spend money at the important positions. Letting Samuel walk as well will just be comical to top it all off. 

[ncfan]

2 hours ago, Peon Awesome said:

People on here are like "stupid Hurney is just going to let Moton walk because he's incompetent and doesn't realize we need Moton. All he has to do is offer him $15 million per year. So easy."

I would bet you Moton's agent is going to Hurney saying he wants to be the highest paid tackle in the NFL. Yes tackle, L or R, surpassing the $22 million per year Tunsil got. If you think Hurney offering $15 is going to make Moton jump out of his seat and sign the contract, you are embarrassingly naive. He will test free agency if that's the best offer we give him. And maybe the depressed cap will help some but not as much as you hope. So if you're banging on the door for Hurney to resign Moton, and rightfully so, don't be surprised if it takes $18 million+. And realize him not getting resigned could be because they refuse to budge from Tunsil territory at this point.

And Im sure his agent is

 

 

The problem is

Marty hadnt even Began to talk extension negotiations this past offseason.  Now multiple OTs have signed higher deals, also letting him play out the last year of his deal (for a guy like him) is a HUGE HUGE mistake.  

This is 10000% on Hurney.  It shouldve never gotten to this.  If he just did his F'ing job, we wouldnt be talking about this.

[Billy Love]

The one Panther player we cannot live without??????

The one Panther player we cannot afford to lose?????

 

 

 

Answer:

He don't play here anymore.

 

 

 

[Basbear]

I feel you must tag him, but until you work out a long term deal, you have 15 million in cap space tied up.  If you only have 30 in space that hurts badly to sign any other "good" FA. You have a list and groups of FAs, in one of those Motons name is not there. They could be forced to let me walk if other options are signed. 

 

I see Trent Scott play and he could be signed for cheap, is Moton 5x worth Scott? Nope. It was the same deal about Bradberry vs Norman, no chance Norman was 15x the player Bradberry was even on his rookie year. 

[DeAngelo Beason]

I kind of hope having a coach like Rhule in place will help players like Moton make the decision to at least hear us out when it comes to free agency, unlike guys like Bradberry who didn't even give us a shot.

[mrcompletely11]

Person writes in the Atlantic what he has been saying pretty much all season.  The panthers cannot afford Moton.  Holy hell how did this happen?  We are going to replace all 5 positions on the line?  If this doesnt get Hurney fired then I give up

 

Right tackle Taylor Moton

Chance he returns: 30 percent.

Key stat: Moton has not allowed a quarterback pressure in three games and has given up just 12 all year — tied for second fewest among qualified tackles, according to Pro Football Focus.

Comment: Moton, the second-round pick from 2017, has become one of the league’s top right tackles and is eyeing a payday in the $15 million-a-year range. That seems unlikely to come from the Panthers. A source said there have been no talks about an extension between the two sides. The Panthers could use the franchise tag on Moton. But that one-year number (the tag was $14.8 million for offensive linemen last year) would represent a big chunk of a salary cap that could be as much as $22 million lower than this year’s because of decreased revenues during the pandemic.