Outside of a QB who do you have and why?

[LinvilleGorge]

10 minutes ago, ImaginaryKev said:

I dont know about y'all but Trey Lance the only QB I would want us to stay away from and its bc of Carson Wentz looking like poo, and the fact that he's barely played. I think that's an issue

Wentz is a shell of his former self.

[ImaginaryKev]

11 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Wentz is a shell of his former self.

Almost like he's begging to be traded to Indy in the off-season so Frank Reich can fix him

[ImaginaryKev]

Bengals have no choice but to draft him

 

[DaveThePanther2008]

3 hours ago, OldhamA said:

My approach is that the Draft is used to acquire talent. 

Take the best player available at your pick (within reason). Use FA to supplement this and fill any glaring holes on the roster.

Our problem hasn't been taking those great players at less than premium positions in the first round. It's been finding good players in the later rounds.

Our Draft history is the stuff of nightmares if you actually take the time to go back and look at who we picked.

Our philosophy, which isn't a bad one.  Was to address each need through FA and then draft BPA.  The problem has been our FA selections suck and outside of the 1st round we suck. 

Below are Rounds 1 through 4. (beyond round 4)  Shaq and Boston are the only ones that are left from anything before 2015

2011   

Cam Newton QB,  Terrell McClain, DT,   Sione Fua, DT, Hogan CB

2012

Luke Kuechly   Amini Silatolu G,  Frank Alexander DE,  Joe Adams WR,  (Norman and Nortman)

2013

Star Lotulelei DT, Short DT ,  Edmond Kugbila OL, (Klein)

2014

Kelvin Benjiman WR, Kony Ealy DE, Tra Turner G,  Tre Boston S

2015

Shaq Thompson LB , Devon Funchess WR, Daryll William OL, David Mayo LB

2016

Vernon Butler, DT,  James Bradberry CB ,  Daryl Worley CB , Zack Sanchez CB 

2017

Christan McCaffrey RB . Curtis Samuel RB/WR , Taylor Moton OT, Dayshon Hall DE (Elder, Armah, Butker)

2018

DJ Moore WR,  Donte Jackson CB, Rashaan Glauden CB, Ian Thomas TE  (Haynes, Carter)

2019

Brian Burns DE, Greg Little OT, Will Grier QB, Christian Miller LB, (Daley)

2020

Derrick Brown, DT, YGM DE, Jeremy Chinn S, Troy Pride CB (Roy)

39 Picks 20 Picks played for us.

14 Picks (that play) still with team.

13 Picks were starters and good players

15 sucked or never saw the field

6 O-linemen in 10 years in round 1 thru 4 Only Moton is left that started and half were serviceable (Moton, Taylor and Williams)

2018 and 2020 are probably our best drafts

Free Agency

2011 QB Derek Anderson, WR Legedu Naanee, TE Greg Olsen (trade), TE Jeremy Shockey, TE Ben Hartsock, NT Ron Edwards, LB Omar Gaither, SS Sean Considine, K Olindo Mare

2012 RB Mike Tolbert, OT/G Bruce Campbell, C/G Mike Pollak, OLB Kenny Onatolu, S Haruki Nakamura, S Reggie Smith

2013  WR Domenik Hixon, DT Colin Cole, ILB Chase Blackburn, CB D.J. Moore, CB Drayton Florence, S Michael Mitchell, KR Ted Ginn

2014 WR Jerricho Cotchery, WR Jason Avant, WR Tiquan Underwood, WR/QB Joe Webb, TE Ed Dickson, TE Mike McNeill, CB Antoine Cason, S Roman Harper, S Thomas DeCoud.

2015 RB Jordan Todman, WR Jarrett Boykin, ILB Jason Trusnik, CB Charles Tillman, S Kurt Coleman, KR Ted Ginn

2016 C Gino Gradkowski, DT Paul Soliai, S Trenton Robinson.

2017 WR Charles Johnson, WR Russell Shepard, OT Matt Kalil, DE Julius Peppers, CB Captain Munnerlyn, S Mike Adams.

2018 RB C.J. Anderson, WR Torrey Smith, WR Jarius Wright, OT Jeremiah Sirles, NT Dontari Poe, CB Ross Cockrell, S Da'Norris Searcy.

2019 WR Chris Hogan, WR Aldrick Robinson, C Matt Paradis, DT Gerald McCoy, DE/OLB Bruce Irvin.

2020 QB Teddy Bridgewater, QB Phillip Walker, WR Robby Anderson, WR Seth Roberts, TE Seth DeValve, OT Russell Okung, G Michael Schofield, G John Miller, DE Stephen Weatherly, DT Zach Kerr, LB Tahir Whitehead, CB Eli Apple, S Juston Burris.

72 Free Agents  only 25 were worthy of a contract. (arguably) (8 of those 25 are in the 2020 class)

Outside of Paradis (definitely arguable) and an oft injured Okung and maybe Miller (another arguably player) our O-Line Free Agents have been terrible. 

So all in all,  Our picks are inconsistent and we paid a ton in Free Agency for very little return. 

[Varking]

7 hours ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

Not arguing the Pitts pick but is he a solution in this offense?  Brady doesn't seem to utilize a TE much.  I didn't see LSU last year so someone needs to tell me he utilized the TE.  Is it because none of our TE are good enough or Brady doesn't use them or both. Pitts could be the greatest TE ever and it won't matter if we don't utilize him.

Because he never had a TE as talented at Pitts. 

[thefuzz]

I'm not interested in a TE, RB, DT, S, G, C,  or LB in the 1st.

Figure out a way to get the QB you want, or get the best OT, or get the best DE or CB.  If the value doesn't match the player, accrue more assets by sliding back.

Not scared to trade up for a QB or OT if the team (Not Marty) thinks that the player is worth it.  Not interested in moving up for any other position.

[theinstrumental]

On 11/23/2020 at 11:55 PM, DaveThePanther2008 said:

That's usually how it works.  When you lose a great asset you draft another one.  I can't recall our needs each time we drafted them but they were probably BPA.  

They were all great linebackers and Luke could be considered GOAT. 

Do you think our defense would have been as good as it was without Luke?  Say we picked someone else instead of Luke and drafted a 2nd or 3rd rounder.  Do you think they would have been able to lead that defense to a 15-1 season in 2015? Probably not.

I got your point that you can get a good MLB on day 2 serviceable but not great.

The next pick was Stephon Gilmore, who's also won a DPOY award and still has a few good years ahead of him. Fletcher Cox was a few picks later. Neither of those guys were as good as Luke at their peaks, but would you rather have 12 years of Gilmore or 8 years of Kuechly? It's at least close, right? And Gilmore's not the GOAT corner. Luke's in that discussion. So what's that going to look like when it's a normal first-round linebacker instead of Luke?

[AU-panther]

Trying to force one particular position in the first round is stupid.  Just because you view one particular position as your biggest weakness doesn't mean you have to spend your first pick on it.

Teams always have multiple needs and also with the nature of the salary cap in the NFL needs are always changing.

In the first round I'm looking for high value positions, that I have somewhat a need for, that can't easily be found later in the draft or cheaply in free agency.

At this point I'm thinking, QB, OT, DT (3tech), CB, S based on value of wherever we end up picking.

Would also consider LB or TE if the value was that much better than the above choices.  Also WR might be a consideration considering what we do with Samuel.  Not sure if we will want to pay Robby, DG, and Samuel.  Might need a cheaper one on a rookie contract, but there seems to be good value on WRs in the second also.

QB, OT, WR, and CB all seem to have some value this year in that 8-12 range but its still early.

 

 

[bobcat91]

On 11/25/2020 at 5:59 AM, theinstrumental said:

The next pick was Stephon Gilmore, who's also won a DPOY award and still has a few good years ahead of him. Fletcher Cox was a few picks later. Neither of those guys were as good as Luke at their peaks, but would you rather have 12 years of Gilmore or 8 years of Kuechly? It's at least close, right? And Gilmore's not the GOAT corner. Luke's in that discussion. So what's that going to look like when it's a normal first-round linebacker instead of Luke?

Fletcher Cox has played at just a high a rate, has never missed as many games as Luke and is still playing at a very high level. I love Luke, but Cox would have been just as dynamic here

[LinvilleGorge]

7 hours ago, AU-panther said:

In the first round I'm looking for high value positions, that I have somewhat a need for, that can't easily be found later in the draft or cheaply in free agency.

This. 

[OldhamA]

14 hours ago, bobcat91 said:

Fletcher Cox has played at just a high a rate, has never missed as many games as Luke and is still playing at a very high level. I love Luke, but Cox would have been just as dynamic here

Fletcher Cox is exceptional (and a player I wanted in that Draft if Kuechly wasn't there), but he's not a HoFer. 

I'd rather have had 8 years of a generational LB. Rivera just wasted it.

[CanadianCat]

3 hours ago, OldhamA said:

I'd rather have had 8 years of a generational LB. Rivera just wasted it.

How can you say Rivera wasted it?! I see zero logic in that. 

 

Guys just cause you dont win a super bowl doesnt mean you have wasted a player!

[Varking]

46 minutes ago, CanadianCat said:

How can you say Rivera wasted it?! I see zero logic in that. 

 

Guys just cause you dont win a super bowl doesnt mean you have wasted a player!

Luke was both an elite talent and elite on field coach. Constantly guessing plays and getting guys moved into right spots. If you have a guy that talented and good and only finish with a top 10 defense 3 times during his reign as our MLB, the coaching staff and GM absolutely wasted his talents. We went out of our way on defense to let people walk away to other teams because we thought we could plug and play anybody else as long as we had Luke.  The GMs didn’t make great calls on talent and our coaches did not coach up players. That’s why we have seen a significant jump this year compared to last year, we have less talent right now on defense but we are performing better as a whole... because Rhule and Snow can coach defense. 

[CanadianCat]

5 minutes ago, Varking said:

Luke was both an elite talent and elite on field coach. Constantly guessing plays and getting guys moved into right spots. If you have a guy that talented and good and only finish with a top 10 defense 3 times during his reign as our MLB, the coaching staff and GM absolutely wasted his talents. We went out of our way on defense to let people walk away to other teams because we thought we could plug and play anybody else as long as we had Luke.  The GMs didn’t make great calls on talent and our coaches did not coach up players. That’s why we have seen a significant jump this year compared to last year, we have less talent right now on defense but we are performing better as a whole... because Rhule and Snow can coach defense. 

Right but your forgetting there is a trade off, its not like you build a defense in a vacuum. You have to balance building the defense with the offence and special teams. 

 

I guess I dont understand how to define 'wasting' a player that accrued all the accolades he did.