Are we content with what we're getting from Derrick Brown

[thefuzz]

3 hours ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

 

Yeah i'm with you on top 10 picks. In a league that is predicated on the QB and the passing game, the majority of Top 10 picks in my mind need to either be QB's, OT's, DE's or top flight CB's (not saying WR because talent at the position is not nearly as hard to come by as the others listed here.)  Spending a top 10 pick on a player who doesn't play passing only downs is something I'm skeptical of conceptually. Same root idea for why I've been campaigning against taking a MLB with our 1st rounder. Does Whitehead blow chunks? Absolutely. Do we have to try to replace him with Parsons or some other version of the second coming of Luke? IMO no.

By the same token while I like what I'm seeing out of Brown and think he will be solid to outstanding for us long term, to date I would still have rather we drafted Wirfs or Wills just based on positional value.  IF Brown evolves into that rare DT dominate against run AND pass, then maybe that changes over time, but at this point I think it's most likely he becomes a great run stopping DT who is average to good in pass rush, and while that's not at all bad to have, if you're asking me is that what I want to spend a top 10 pick on? 

No.

Totally agree with you and @micnificent28.

I like Brown, think he will be a good long term starter for us, and if you get that from any draft pick you have to be happy..and I am.

However, at that spot...top 10, run stuffing DT just ain't it for me.  IMO you need one of the tougher positions to fill taken there, OT, DE, QB, CB.

Again, not going after the player, I'm going after the team building plan.

[Carl Spackler]

21 hours ago, Beerfacedlegend said:

Like I said he needs to do better he was a top 10 pick with 0 sacks . Hopefully he’s better next season but I expected more 

Some day, people will learn the difference between defensive tackle and defensive end. 

[Carl Spackler]

On 11/11/2020 at 9:12 PM, Captain Morgan said:

PFF

 

@PFF

Most QB pressures by rookies: 1. Chase Young - 17

2. Derrick Brown - 13

3. Javon Kinlaw - 12

4. Tershawn Wharton - 11

This says it all. Brown has done a good job and once he gets more practice and the officials stop targeting him, he’s gonna be a Pro Bowl-caliber DT. 

[Basbear]

23 hours ago, micnificent28 said:

Appreciate the level of respect. But I dont think my take is that far fetched. Like I stated. He isn't a bad player at all. Just like star wasn't. I think hes closer to star than or Quinnen Williams  guy who maybe an under tackle for sure. What are we judging his value you on is the reason we disagree. My personal draft philosophy as I tried to explain is all on value. 10 players day 1 starters, superior athletes that regular starters just can't handle. 

I know what ,brown does best and he is good at it taking on 2 defenders and stoping the run. That is a great trait. But being a top 10 selection means you stop the run and pass both dominately. Look at previous first round defensive tackles and I dont think in recent memory has a 2 down stop the run only guy went this high.

And I know he plays more than 2 down but thats where he looks effective most in the eye test. When it is a known passing down I see them take him out and efi come in. I know he's young and developing, but this is about where he looks to me. And everyone is free to their own opinion and this is my take.

I'll say this too, its very hard for any fans (hardcore or not) to truly evaluate DTs. I do understand including value, Im big on that too. OG, RB, run stuffing DT, SS and C are not worth the same as QB, DE, OT, and WR. A 22 year old that is able to beat double teams, forklifts good NFL OG/Cs, and causing havoc is for sure worth a top ten draft pick. His value is also tied to what his teammates are and hes the only play-making DT on the roster. Teams are doubling him not Kerr or Roy. You could have a great top ten pick WR, but if your QB can not throw it to him, that WR would look poor and waste of a pick too. To me brown is about 70% of what he did in college and he had one of the best seasons for a DT in college history. Keep your focus on him in the coming weeks. Hopefully he isnt dealing with a injury and your opinion may chance some. Ive been very impressed with his power, never seen a rookie DT with the level he has.  

[TrevorLaurenceTime22]

On 11/11/2020 at 10:58 PM, PantherPhann89 said:

I'm happy with Brown and his production in the given situation. Kwann Short didn't become KK until a space eater named Star Lotulelie was put beside him...

Ummm they were drafted in round 1 and two of the same draft...

[CPF4LIFE]

Derrick has been great 

[PantherPhann89]

4 hours ago, TrevorLaurenceTime22 said:

Ummm they were drafted in round 1 and two of the same draft...

Yeah I was off on that but we still need a space eater in the middle so our blitzes and our pressure can get through. Pressure of the edge is meaningless without pressure to the middle...

[micnificent28]

1 hour ago, TikTOK said:

I like Brown but when you’re a DT drafted top 7, you should be able to pressure the QB and get some sacks. 

Bingo thats my point.

[ForJimmy]

4 hours ago, TikTOK said:

I like Brown but when you’re a DT drafted top 7, you should be able to pressure the QB and get some sacks. 

He has the second most pressures of any rookie. Sacks will come in time. Very similar to Burns his rookie year getting frequent pressure.
 

The problem with our defense is Whitehead, Boston, and depth. We also don’t have a solid CB. I do think that Pride and Douglas can develop into solid starters for us in time. Once we get a solid MLB and FS to pair with these young players we will have a top defense. Chinn, YGM, and Brown are already showing promise with Franklin, Pride, and Roy all showing flashes. I think we nailed this past draft!

[Beerfacedlegend]

He’s Vernon butler 2.0 I’m not making excuses for any player rookie or not 

[Basbear]

On 11/15/2020 at 5:19 PM, micnificent28 said:

Bingo thats my point.

Check this out-

https://theriotreport.com/appreciating-the-growth-of-derrick-brown/

 

Also pressures are a better stat than sacks in judgement of a DLman. The links brings up your worries as well and shows DB working like a manbeast too. 

[Mr. Scot]

On 11/14/2020 at 10:59 AM, Carl Spackler said:

Some day, people will learn the difference between defensive tackle and defensive end. 

Heck, even distinguishing him as a defensive tackle doesn't really tell the full story. You've got nose tackles, undertackles (or zero-tech, on, three-tech etc if you prefer that method).

Bottom line for me: He does what the defense asks of him and does it well.

[AU-panther]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Heck, even distinguishing him as a defensive tackle doesn't really tell the full story. You've got nose tackles, undertackles (or zero-tech, on, three-tech etc if you prefer that method).

Bottom line for me: He does what the defense asks of him and does it well.

But does he do it well compared to the rest of the league?  Good and bad are relative terms so unless you are applying your "eye test" to every other DT in the league then you are grading him to some arbitrary standard. 

What if you find out there are 20 other DTs in the league who get double teamed just as much as him, but they still have more pressures than him, would your opinion of him change?

People around here need to balance stats with the eye test.  Stats alone can often be misinterpreted, but the eye test without knowing what the rest of the league is doing can cause people to lose context.

Personally I think he is playing pretty well for a rookie, but maybe not as well as some around here think.  The double teamed argument is a bit overplayed, there are plenty of other DTs who get double teamed just as much if not more and still find ways to pressure the QB.  

 

 

 

[Mr. Scot]

12 hours ago, AU-panther said:

But does he do it well compared to the rest of the league?  Good and bad are relative terms so unless you are applying your "eye test" to every other DT in the league then you are grading him to some arbitrary standard. 

What if you find out there are 20 other DTs in the league who get double teamed just as much as him, but they still have more pressures than him, would your opinion of him change?

People around here need to balance stats with the eye test.  Stats alone can often be misinterpreted, but the eye test without knowing what the rest of the league is doing can cause people to lose context.

Personally I think he is playing pretty well for a rookie, but maybe not as well as some around here think.  The double teamed argument is a bit overplayed, there are plenty of other DTs who get double teamed just as much if not more and still find ways to pressure the QB.  

Is there a huge difference between the fifth best DT in the league and the fifteenth?

Is there a stat for how many times a defensive lineman affected a play by altering a running lane or forcing a quarterback to move around?

There are only two classes player in the league: guys that are good enough to help your team win and guys that are not. Stats don't always help you identify those guys, especially not at positions like offensive or defensive line.