Oh you guys

[GoPanthers123]

11 hours ago, Zod said:

In August, If I told you the Carolina Panthers defensive backfield would consist of Corn Elder, Troy Pride Jr, Sam Franklin, and Tre Boston you would assumed we would give up 50+ points to Atlanta. 

 

No I wouldn’t. I believe in this team and new coaches.  

[RoaringRiot]

14 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Raiders loss - Defense more than offense.

Tampa loss - 100% offense.

Chicago loss - Offense more than defense.

New Orleans loss - 100% defense.

Atlanta loss - Defense more than offense.

 

Pretty close overall, IMO. But in the majority of the games, our offense has played well enough for us to win. The defense has played losing football in even the majority of our wins. It's not really surprising, that side of the ball is far, far, far less talented and far, far, far less deep.

Chargers win was D. AZ win was both. 
 

the D has been bad and the O hasnt been very good. 
 

but yeah, six rookies including UDFAs last night is wild. 

[kungfoodude]

3 minutes ago, RoaringRiot said:

Chargers win was D. AZ win was both. 
 

the D has been bad and the O hasnt been very good. 
 

but yeah, six rookies including UDFAs last night is wild. 

The D got torched yardage wise but forced critical TO's. I will point out that the Chargers have not had a multi-TO game except that one with Herbert starting. And I think that is one of two multi-TO games we have had on the year. TBH, I think that was largely two outliers intersecting.

 

The D is bad, without question. But, when you adjust for the talent and depth level....it is definitely over achieving. 

[BrianS]

6 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

Raiders loss - Defense more than offense.

Tampa loss - 100% offense.

Chicago loss - Offense more than defense.

New Orleans loss - 100% defense.

Atlanta loss - Defense more than offense.

 

Pretty close overall, IMO. But in the majority of the games, our offense has played well enough for us to win. The defense has played losing football in even the majority of our wins. It's not really surprising, that side of the ball is far, far, far less talented and far, far, far less deep.

Sigh.

Raiders game.  Their defense allows 33 points per game on average.  We scored . . . 31.

How the hell is the Saints loss on the defense?  We had the ball with EIGHT MINUTES on the clock, down THREE.  Wait.  Let me make it even more blunt.  We were first and 10 at the Saints 38 with 3 minutes to go!  And the loss is on the DEFENSE?!?!?  The defense in that Saints loss held them to three points less than their season scoring average!  The Saints defense averages allowing 29 points per game . . . we scored 24.

Atlanta . . . same thing!  First and ten at the Atlanta 34 with 1:16 left and TWO timeouts!  Falcons defense?  Yea, they give up 28 per game on average.  We scored . . . 17.  Falcons offense scores 26 per game, we gave them 25.

I believe you are seeing what you want to see and not objectively looking at the outcomes.

If you feel that the offense is ahead of the defense in achievement, then it should be showing up statistically, especially when it comes to scoring.  Scoring is all that really matters when you come down to it.

Even the "highly indicative" stats show the same thing.  Look at turnovers & red zone.

Our defense is 8th in the league at generating turnovers.  Our offense is 12th in the league in giveaways.  Only 11 teams have given it away more.

Red zone defense, we're 14th.  Red zone offense, we're 25th.

Bottom line, our defense is middle of the pack:  scoring defense, 14th @ 24.1 ppg, redzone defense, 14th @ 58,62%.  Which is way, way better than anyone ever expected. 

Our offense is actually in the bottom third of the league in all of the important categories:  scoring offense, 25th @ 22.4 ppg, redzone offense, 25th @ 53.85%.

Watching the games tells you what happened, but you need to look at the league as a whole to understand what it means.  You see before you an average NFL defense.  One that is well documented to be short on talent.  Yes, our expectations as Panthers fans tell us that this defense is terrible, because we are accustomed to such OUTSTANDING defenses in our history that we struggle to understand what "average" really looks like.  Likewise, we look at this offense and view it through the lens of our history . . . it's soooo much more pleasant to watch than what we're accustomed to that we "feel" like it can't be the problem.  But in fact, when looking at the league as a whole, this offense isn't actually very successful.  This is a below average offense.

Again, I'm not saying this was or should be unexpected.  I'll channel the ghost of John Fox:  "It is what it is."  

[ForJimmy]

The defense should be our weakness on paper. The offense should be carrying this team while the rookies learn in my opinion. However we all knew this team wasn’t going to be ready this year. We are competitive and it looks like we nailed the draft as well. I’m super excited about Burns, Brown, and YGM on our defensive line for the next few seasons!

[Proudiddy]

I agree on all points, Jeremy.  But it doesn't make it any easier to watch when we have only forced like 1 or 2 punts in 3 weeks.

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, BrianS said:

Sigh.

Raiders game.  Their defense allows 33 points per game on average.  We scored . . . 31.

How the hell is the Saints loss on the defense?  We had the ball with EIGHT MINUTES on the clock, down THREE.  Wait.  Let me make it even more blunt.  We were first and 10 at the Saints 38 with 3 minutes to go!  And the loss is on the DEFENSE?!?!?  The defense in that Saints loss held them to three points less than their season scoring average!  The Saints defense averages allowing 29 points per game . . . we scored 24.

Atlanta . . . same thing!  First and ten at the Atlanta 34 with 1:16 left and TWO timeouts!  Falcons defense?  Yea, they give up 28 per game on average.  We scored . . . 17.  Falcons offense scores 26 per game, we gave them 25.

I believe you are seeing what you want to see and not objectively looking at the outcomes.

If you feel that the offense is ahead of the defense in achievement, then it should be showing up statistically, especially when it comes to scoring.  Scoring is all that really matters when you come down to it.

Even the "highly indicative" stats show the same thing.  Look at turnovers & red zone.

Our defense is 8th in the league at generating turnovers.  Our offense is 12th in the league in giveaways.  Only 11 teams have given it away more.

Red zone defense, we're 14th.  Red zone offense, we're 25th.

Bottom line, our defense is middle of the pack:  scoring defense, 14th @ 24.1 ppg, redzone defense, 14th @ 58,62%.  Which is way, way better than anyone ever expected. 

Our offense is actually in the bottom third of the league in all of the important categories:  scoring offense, 25th @ 22.4 ppg, redzone offense, 25th @ 53.85%.

Watching the games tells you what happened, but you need to look at the league as a whole to understand what it means.  You see before you an average NFL defense.  One that is well documented to be short on talent.  Yes, our expectations as Panthers fans tell us that this defense is terrible, because we are accustomed to such OUTSTANDING defenses in our history that we struggle to understand what "average" really looks like.  Likewise, we look at this offense and view it through the lens of our history . . . it's soooo much more pleasant to watch than what we're accustomed to that we "feel" like it can't be the problem.  But in fact, when looking at the league as a whole, this offense isn't actually very successful.  This is a below average offense.

Again, I'm not saying this was or should be unexpected.  I'll channel the ghost of John Fox:  "It is what it is."  

I believe you are seeing what you want to see and not objectively looking at the outcomes.

This quote is literally what you are doing. 

[top dawg]

22 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Yep, this is what I keep saying. So many people trashing the defense when the defense is actually out-performing the offense. The defense isn't very good, but they've been playing above expectations.

Not buying "The defense is outperforming the offense." That's a s t  r   e    t       c      h!

The offense has played without CMC for six games! The O-line has some serious issues! And Teddy has had some missed opportunities and flat out mistakes, so it hasn't been all peaches and cream for Brady either. Just like Snow has to figure out when/if to play zone or man and when not to, Brady's going to have to figure out how to get the ball in the end zone after sustaining drives between the twenties.

[top dawg]

On 10/30/2020 at 6:42 AM, Zod said:

In August, If I told you the Carolina Panthers defensive backfield would consist of Corn Elder, Troy Pride Jr, Sam Franklin, and Tre Boston you would assumed we would give up 50+ points to Atlanta. That is the absolute worst defensive backfield the Carolina Panthers have ever had and they played together for much of the night. 

Still, the Panthers allowed only 25 points. 

Blast Phil Snow all you want, but Ron Rivera had MUCH worse performances against Matt and Julio WITH guys like Kuechly and Bradberry playing. 

These growing pains were expected. They have been accelerated due to starter injuries. The good news is we are still holding our own all while giving rookies like Chinn, Brown, Roy, Franklin and Pride valuable playing experience. This will pay dividends next season. 

 

I haven't seen anyone "blast" Snow! I have seen people try and sidestep obvious issues---like basically playing zone on skates in reverse all the way down the field! How about being chipped down on the edges all the way down the field? You have to switch it up to keep the opposition on its toes if things aren't working. 

I hope playing rookies will pay dividends next season. But, will that be because of the seasoned rookies this year, or brand new rookies the next. People seem to want it both ways. From my impression, most are saying we suck due to lack of talent, not lack of experience! In reality the answer is somewhere in the middle. But, if you're going to infuse the defense with another shot of young talent, then when do expect to see concrete improvement? Year three? Is that the answer to the question that no one has yet really answered? What does "success" look like in year one---two? Should it be judged on a per game basis? Do you look for small improvements snap to snap, series to series or half to half? You just can't give Snow an open slate and say, "Hey, you get a pass regardless of what happens on defense, even if it happens repeatedly, because it's a bunch of young guys!" Or, maybe some of you can. I don't know. There has to be some measure of success more than not sucking as bad as some thought. I say "some" because I never bought into the notion that our defense would be historically awful. I mean, we did invest a relatively lot of draft capital into it, so much so that it was notably historical. 

[LinvilleGorge]

51 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Not buying "The defense is outperforming the offense." That's a s t  r   e    t       c      h!

The offense has played without CMC for six games! The O-line has some serious issues! And Teddy has had some missed opportunities and flat out mistakes, so it hasn't been all peaches and cream for Brady either. Just like Snow has to figure out when/if to play zone or man and when not to, Brady's going to have to figure out how to get the ball in the end zone after sustaining drives between the twenties.

It doesn't matter what you're buying. It's a factual statement. The defense is ranked significantly higher than the offense in both yardage and scoring. 

[top dawg]

1 hour ago, LinvilleGorge said:

It doesn't matter what you're buying. It's a factual statement. The defense is ranked significantly higher than the offense in both yardage and scoring. 

That's a simplistic way to look at things, but whatever. Do you!

[LinvilleGorge]

5 minutes ago, top dawg said:

That's a simplistic way to look at things, but whatever. Do you!

There ya go, that's how to go full 2020. Don't let facts get in the way of opinions! 

[top dawg]

Just now, LinvilleGorge said:

There ya go, that's how to go full 2020. Don't let facts get in the way of opinions! 

Cherry picking stats at many times equals to alternative "facts", as you well know. That's why you have analytics to break things down, not to mention context.

[LinvilleGorge]

2 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Cherry picking stats at many times equals to alternative "facts", as you well know. That's why you have analytics to break things down, not to mention context.

Cherry picking stats? LOL! Cherry picking would be looking for very specific stats to fit an argument. That's not at all what I did. You can do all the mental gymanstics you want, but through this point of the season, the defense has outperformed the offense.