Davidson or Trgo... you must fire one.

[monstercat]

And there are 12 teams with equal or less talent who are getting more out of their defense than we are. I don't advocate getting rid of someone unless you can find someone who is better. So it isn't a given that we should fire Trgovac and try someone who is perhaps unproven as he was back in 2003. Still if a guy like LeBeau or someone else could be hired why would we keep mediocre results when we could do so much better. We replaced Henning with Davidson with good results. I don't think it is insane to look to upgrade the defense as well. Trgo isn't really getting better nor will patience briing better results. HIs system is what it is. I personally don't think it is aggressive enough or creative enough to confuse defenses.. I would personally like a defense more like Pittsburgh or Baltimore if we go 3-4 or Philly or the Giants if we go 4-3. We frankly have more talent than either Philly or NY but have poorer results.

Who are these 12 teams with better defenses and less talent than what we had for the Giants game? Please name them.

[frash.exe]

Trgo's defense, in terms of where players were drafted, specifically consist of:

6 first rounders (Peppers, Brayton, Lewis, Beason, Davis, Gamble)

2 second rounders (Marshall, Lucas).

Three starters not mentioned already were picked up from other teams with great defenses (Na'il Diggs, Maake Kemoeatu, Chris Harris)

only ONE starter is a rookie. So it's not unreasonable to think that Trgovac could do a better job with the talent he has acquired than 13th overall. His defenses have gotten progressively worse over the last 3 years (3rd, 7th, 16th from 2005-2007) and are lingering closest to his most recent ranking, 16th, this year. We may rank 8th in least points allowed but the first 8 games really skew the stats that way. The last 7 have been point totals of 34, 10, 23, 31, 45, 22, and 6, for a grand total of, 171, which averages out to 24 points a game. That's not dominating defense and our offense has covered of what has been for the most part a 6-ton elephant in the room by scoring much more points on it's own.

It's easy to think with a team making the playoffs that everyone's job is secure. While that is true with head coaches, assistants and coordinators historically don't have much of a reputation. So I don't understand what the attachment is with Trgovac.

So, IMO, the one who should go would easily be Trgovac. Give me a young defensive mind, someone like a Sean McDermott from Philly, that way it would be a much smoother transition since it's still a 4-3, and this guy has done a terrific job as secondary coach as well as a linebacker coach. He was also an assistant HC in 2000, when they went 11-5.

Giants hired Steve Spagnuolo from the Eagles to be DC and they had posted overall defensive stats in the mid 20s in 2005 and 2006. Spags put them in the top 10 in 07 and it's looking like he's going to keep them top 10 this year as well.

[panthers55]

Who are these 12 teams with better defenses and less talent than what we had for the Giants game? Please name them.

There are twelve teams who are better in total yards, 10 giving up fewer passing yards, and 21 giving up fewer running yards. Plus there are 8 giving up fewer points. The four I mentioned are all above us in most every category.

Plus note that our statistics are getting worse rather than better. If we just looked at the last 6 games we would be closer to the bottom of the league. Our rank has consistently fallen since the Detroit game.

For a list see this:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/team

As for the Giants game we played terrible. I wouldn't use that as a bench mark against anyone. We gave up 459 yards and 34 points.

Not many teams gave up than we did. In fact that is the most yards they have gotten on the ground all year. And we gave up more yards on the ground than any Panther team I can remember.

[monstercat]

The Baltimore Ravens are one of the best and most consistent defenses in the league, especially against the run, but the Giants not only forced them to change the way they defended them, but they still ran the ball on them all game long, which is exactly what the change of scheme was designed to stop. Yet, people are surprised that the Giants ran on us without Kemo, and by the end of the game and overtime, without Damione Lewis as well? I can't help but to wonder how many Panthers fans were really dumb enough to think it would be easy to shut down the Giants running game...I know I didn't.

The bottom line is that people need to stop overreacting and calling for somebody to be fired after every single game the Panthers lose. That's just retarded. The Panthers are 11-4 and have a chance to lock up the #2 seed in the play offs this week. How many fans here even expected them to be in this position back in August?

BTW, I could care less about total yardage...the most important stat for any defense, is points allowed and I know damn well there aren't 12 teams that are better at that, much less 12 teams that are better in that area and are doing it with less talent.

[TheJza]

Has to be Trgo. I've been in favor of his dismissal, providing that soft zone crap is dismissed with him. We have done less with more on defense than Dallas has done...period! Our defense is littered with talent and it should be one which dominates opponents. We only have 6 first rounders starting! Some which have made the Pro Bowl, or who have been deserving.

On the other hand, Davidson has been serviceable to say the least. Last year was a disaster, but not having Jake will do that to you. This year, we've put up points and have been dominant at times. I expect that side of the ball to continue to grow and get better. Although, I would like to see Fox/Davidson be MUCH MORE aggressive with a one possession lead, on the road, while playing for the number one seed in the NFC.

To interrupt Monster and Panther55s discussion with a tidbit...

I tend to agree with Panther55. While stats are what they are, I would argue that there is very little difference in a defense that gives up 19.9 points per game, and say...21. There is a one point per game difference. The vaunted Chicago Bears, and the Dallas Cowboys both rank in that arena. The point is, we could just as easily be ranked somewhere in the 18-22 area in points allowed, as we are currently in the top 10. I agree, that points are the most important statistic in the end, but I also believe in the "eye test". The eye test suggests that we have very little pass rush, and our secondary plays off the ball too much, allowing for easy yardage and conversions. A bad statistical day against an offense like the Saints will murder our rankings, for those of you who think they're important. In such a case, we are likely to find ourselves in the middle to bottom third in most statistical categories, defensively.

[panthers55]

The Baltimore Ravens are one of the best and most consistent defenses in the league, especially against the run, but the Giants not only forced them to change the way they defended them, but they still ran the ball on them all game long, which is exactly what the change of scheme was designed to stop. Yet, people are surprised that the Giants ran on us without Kemo, and by the end of the game and overtime, without Damione Lewis as well? I can't help but to wonder how many Panthers fans were really dumb enough to think it would be easy to shut down the Giants running game...I know I didn't.

The bottom line is that people need to stop overreacting and calling for somebody to be fired after every single game the Panthers lose. That's just retarded. The Panthers are 11-4 and have a chance to lock up the #2 seed in the play offs this week. How many fans here even expected them to be in this position back in August?

BTW, I could care less about total yardage...the most important stat for any defense, is points allowed and I know damn well there aren't 12 teams that are better at that, much less 12 teams that are better in that area and are doing it with less talent.

If people base their whole opinion on one game like the Giants game them all of your arguments would at least hold water. It isn't that we lost to the giants so much as we have not been able to impose our will on our opponent in some time. The Giants game was just the latest one on the road. Truth is we could have given up all those yards and if we had stiffened in overtime, all would be forgotten. But instead it was just one more example where the bend don't break defense abandons us when we need a stop.

Sunday is another. If Trgo dials up a great plan and then produces in the playoffs down the road, then I may reconsider. After all you are only as good as your last effort. But I am concerned that with the offense clicking we are struggling on defense and Trgo needs to come up with an effective scheme.

From what I have seen lately we are regressing not improving. Injuries aside we have been a lot more porous lately. Bottom line to me is that the defense is not playing well and he is the leader. So if things don't pick up and we have a early exit due to the defense, then we would be fine without Trgo. Fox will surely already know someone who can do the job.

[goodoleboy]

News flash for all you rocket scientists. Playoff teams don't fire coaches. Save it for when the team is sucking.

[monstercat]

The Panthers held the Broncos scoreless for 3 quarters, and only allowed 10 points just one week prior to the Giants game, so I strongly disagree with the premise that they haven't imposed their will on anybody lately, or that they haven't improved at all. Even the Steelers, Ravens, and Titans defenses have had bad games, and two out of those three got beat worse than we did by the Giants.

[monstercat]

News flash for all you rocket scientists. Playoff teams don't fire coaches. Save it for when the team is sucking.

Thank you. This whole idea that somebody needs to be fired, is just retarded.

[panthers55]

News flash for all you rocket scientists. Playoff teams don't fire coaches. Save it for when the team is sucking.

Wrong again. Teams don't fire head coaches but teams replace coordinators all the time. If one side of the ball is getting it done and the other side isn't, it isn't strange to upgrade. Didn't the Bears change defensive coordinatoors after a great season. I sure there are other examples.

[TheJza]

The Panthers held the Broncos scoreless for 3 quarters, and only allowed 10 points just one week prior to the Giants game, so I strongly disagree with the premise that they haven't imposed their will on anybody lately, or that they haven't improved at all. Even the Steelers, Ravens, and Titans defenses have had bad games, and two out of those three got beat worse than we did by the Giants.

Noted, and with much respect. I would ask you, however, to explain the 23, 31, and 45 points given up the three weeks prior to the Broncos game. 10 points to the Broncos appear to be the exception, not the norm, when sandwiched between the Bucs, Pack, Falcons, and the Giants.

[monstercat]

Noted, and with much respect. I would ask you, however, to explain the 23, 31, and 45 points given up the three weeks prior to the Broncos game. 10 points to the Broncos appear to be the exception, not the norm, when sandwiched between the Bucs, Pack, Falcons, and the Giants.

I already answered this in another thread. I'm tired of going back and forth with this stupid argument.

All everybody needs to know is that Trgovac isn't going anywhere unless he takes another job in the off season. If people can't figure out why that is, that's their problem, not mine.

[frash.exe]

People said the same thing about Henning two years ago....

[monstercat]

I've got one more thing to add to this debate. If Trgovac can't coach, then how do the Panthers keep signing FA castoffs from other teams and making them look good? Think about it.

Gary Gibson, Taylor Brayton, Chris Draft, Na'il Diggs, Damione Lewis, Chris Harris, Al Wallace, and Kemo were all either back ups who rarely got to play, or were considered to be 1st round busts by their former teams, yet they have all done well in Trgovac's defense.

Also, when Del Rio was here, the strongest part of his defense was the D-line. Well, guess who the D-line coach was that year