OLB/SS Franklin, Chinn and the BIG NICKEL

[Troys99x4]

Hope Franklin can be a solid addition for us. Watching his tape though... this dude has bricks for hands. Drops multiple interceptions that were right in the bread basket. 

[Khyber53]

12 hours ago, MHS831 said:

I found this to be a bit of a curious choice---a 210 lb LB and SS.  From what I can gather, he runs in the 4.5-4.6 range.  I found this:

Draft Diamonds' Damond Talbot writes that Temple senior LB Sam Franklin "[h]as extreme burst on a blitz or attacking the run."

Talbot notes that the 6-foot-3, 210-pound Franklin "[p]lays hard, has a nonstop motor & plays with a little nasty." The linebacker began his career with the Owls as a defensive back before shifting over to his current position. That experience in coverage shows, with Talbot writing that Franklin's "coverage skills are something that stands out" on film. The senior finished the past season having registered 63 tackles (7.0 for loss), three sacks, an interception and a fumble forced. He should benefit from having had a full offseason of continued development at linebacker as he looks to blip onto the NFL radar.

Ok, if you want this to make a ton of sense, imagine having players who can play the run AND cover the slot WR.  These guys (Franklin, Chinn) can.  So exactly what is the big nickel and why (and when) is it used?

Basically, instead of having 3 CB’s and 2 Safeties, teams flip it and have 2 CB’s and 3 Safeties on the field.  What this says to an opposing offensive coordinator is “we are gonna play nickel defense against your 11 personnel group, but we will not hand you the running game on a platter”.

The 2 positives of playing big nickel are

1: getting the Sam LB out of the game.  He is typically the worst pass defender, so he’s a liability in the pass game, and he can’t carry the TE (Y) on deep over routes unless he’s an All-Pro-caliber Sam LB.

2: This is hedging the bet against the run game by putting a 3rd safety in the game. This is a guy who does not mind becoming a box player if he reads run.  He also is a better candidate to blitz than a CB would be.

Teams that play “Big Nickel” will typically play it on normal Down & Distance (where the threat of the run is greater) and on 3rd & Long will look to play “Regular Nickel” or just straight up “Dime” (6 DB’s) defense.

However, there is a bit of a downside to playing “Big Nickel”. Typical 3rd Safeties are not going to be able to cover a regular S (slot) receiver man to man. They can get eaten alive by guys like Cole Beasley on shallow crosses and all the quick game routes these types of receivers will run.

  (Chinn and Franklin, apparently, can cover the slot WR, play the box, and blitz.  Expect to see this defense a lot.)

I am learning this, so I thought I would share--this info made me understand the Franklin move, the Chinn move, etc.

Really appreciating your posts! Thanks for the insight!

[Khyber53]

6 hours ago, Proudiddy said:

Good post, but I sure hope they got it right this time.  The elusive big/Buffalo nickel has eluded this organization for quite awhile now lol.

I think it's still eluding the entire NFL. Really trying to develop a new position to go along with the mindset. It's a great reaction to the modern game but you need a big, fast, strong player who can run routes and isn't afraid to deliver a hit. Basically, you need to find a prototypical player who could be modern receiving TE who has a defensive player mindset and has been trained to be that guy throughout college (and maybe high school). The problem might be that most of those guys get put in as TEs where they fit the mold.

Kind of neat to watch the game evolve before our very eyes.

[Moo Daeng]

3 hours ago, Tepper’s Used Car Lot said:

Here we go.

The “big nickel” hybrid player that literally never works as well as fans and analysts write it up on paper.

at the end of the day, positionless football doesn’t work in the NFL. Another thing our green coaching staff is going to learn the hard way.

The Patriots have been using it with success for years. They aren't the only one. If you don't know what it is then you can read up on it before commenting.

https://www.nfl.com/news/big-nickel-package-emerging-as-nfl-s-hottest-defensive-trend-0ap3000000375711

[therealmjl]

11 minutes ago, Moo Daeng said:

The Patriots have been using it with success for years. They aren't the only one. If you don't know what it is then you can read up on it before commenting.

https://www.nfl.com/news/big-nickel-package-emerging-as-nfl-s-hottest-defensive-trend-0ap3000000375711

and we haven't....so what is your point?

[therealmjl]

@Moo Daeng that article is from 7 years ago 

[MHS831]

 

What we do not know is the personnel used, the expertise of the coach, the amount of time preparing the players, or the supporting cast.  All we know is that it "don't work."  we think. 

Here is another description from 2020--(you'd think if it didn't work it would not be around 7 years after the article Moo shared, but Tepper's whatever dismissed as too old for him).  In other words, it is still a thing, and there is a good reason for that--it is a way to have pass protection and run support--you do not have to choose the Sam (to stop the run only) or the extra CB (to stop the pass only, but giving up the run).  So while it may not stop the pass as well as the pure nickel or stop the run as well as the pure 4-3, it keeps the QB from switching to a play that attacks the weakness--because there is not much of a disadvantage either way.

" With the right type of athlete, the big nickel can cover tight ends, receivers, and help in the run game. These players are being referred to as hybrid corner-linebackers, swiss army knives, big nickels, etc. The idea is to try to gain back the advantage over offenses. With more versatile defenders, defenses can mix up looks for the quarterback as the role of players is not so easily dissected by the quarterback before the snap."

https://www.draftblaster.com/big-nickel-super-safeties-defending-12-personnel/

[Raideraholic]

7 hours ago, 07579394 said:

Yeah,actually Snow had already ran this mode in Baylor,with some nameless players like Jordan Williams,and still did it well.

Now,we have two beasts of this type LB/DB...Forget about Isaiah Simmons

I don’t think that big Nickel will be effective alignment against the Raiders .  All the Raiders Te can block , and catch .   D Waller 6’6 253 4.4 speed( he will move outside and play Wr occasionally  ) 

, Foster Moreau 6’4 253 , and Old man Jason Witten 6’6 261.   The Raiders offense line is massive.  The Panthers lbs are undersized .     You play those Lb/ safeties 6’3to 6’2 221 and 210 and their Te’s will bury them in the running game.

Tarik Whitehead is 2 down run defender.  The Raiders know his weakness , and he has no chance defending their RBs coming out of the backfield.     
 

 

[MHS831]

50 minutes ago, Raideraholic said:

I don’t think that big Nickel will be effective alignment against the Raiders .  All the Raiders Te can block , and catch .   D Waller 6’6 253 4.4 speed( he will move outside and play Wr occasionally  ) 

, Foster Moreau 6’4 253 , and Old man Jason Witten 6’6 261.   The Raiders offense line is massive.  The Panthers lbs are undersized .     You play those Lb/ safeties 6’3to 6’2 221 and 210 and their Te’s will bury them in the running game.

Tarik Whitehead is 2 down run defender.  The Raiders know his weakness , and he has no chance defending their RBs coming out of the backfield.     
 

 

Mayock has done well building the team and he gets the value of the OL first--maybe he can have lunch with Hurney.  I think you could use a QB whisperer in LV.  Our only hope is to get a bad game from Carr.  Forgot Witten was there. 

[Raideraholic]

3 hours ago, MHS831 said:

Mayock has done well building the team and he gets the value of the OL first--maybe he can have lunch with Hurney.  I think you could use a QB whisperer in LV.  Our only hope is to get a bad game from Carr.  Forgot Witten was there. 

Raiders were pretty good run defense last year.    J Gruden cut what I consider there best run stuffing Dt ( pj Hall) because he kept coming to camp out of shape. Pj Hall had tremendous strength as was able to handle a lot of double teams.  The Raiders signed  Maliek Collins who should do wonders for their pass rush, but I want to see how his run defense is.      
 

Raiders cbs  all are very reliable physical tacklers.   Max “ The condor” Crosby  and C Ferrell ( improved a lot from last year up to 275).  Are both  the starting bookend De’s . Arden Key has looked great rusher the passer.  C Nassib has been a no show , as those are their Des they will rotate in all game.     Johnathan Hankins, and Maliek Collins are the starting Dt. With M Hurst, and D Ross as backups.

Lbs and at Cb is where the Raiders improved the most this offseason.  Corey Littleton, and N Kwiatoski wil primarily be the lbs out their( Raekwon McMillan will be out there when play with three Lb’s) 

t Mullen, and D Arnette ( has been everything they hoped for) are the starting cb’s.  Lamarcus Joyner is the nickel cb( same role he was atrocious last year in)   Erik Harris, and J Abrams are starting safety .  Jeff Heath will see a lot time in relief.
 

on paper they look way faster and better on all three levels on defense.   The game isn’t played on paper, and have to prove that on the football field.   

[bababoey]

6 hours ago, Tepper’s Used Car Lot said:

and we haven't....so what is your point?

We used the big nickle or buffalo nickle, as Ron called it, starting back in 2013 I think.  Collin Jones played nickle. It actually worked pretty well until he had to go up against little quick guys or he had to play man. 

It's not about if you have a corner or a safety out there in you nickel package.  It's how good the corner or safety is and how he matches up with there receivers.  I think the Giants started it in 2011 when they won the super bowl.  It can work really well.  It just depends on the personnel.

[Moo Daeng]

1 minute ago, bababoey said:

We used the big nickle or buffalo nickle, as Ron called it, starting back in 2013 I think.  Collin Jones played nickle. It actually worked pretty well until he had to go up against little quick guys or he had to play man. 

It's not about if you have a corner or a safety out there in you nickel package.  It's how good the corner or safety is and how he matches up with there receivers.  I think the Giants started it in 2011 when they won the super bowl.  It can work really well.  It just depends on the personnel.

That dude never has a clue what hes posting about. Don't get the imoression he even tries to be informed. 

[Basbear]

@Raideraholic I heard that Cferrell was backup status.

[therealmjl]

We have literally never been consistently successful with the concept of buffalo nickel @Moo Daeng idk what illusional fandom world you live in. 
 

Colin Jones is a glorified special teamer on every NFL roster and we drafted Shaq to play that hybrid role and he has been so lackluster at it we had to square peg round hole him into OLB, which he is slightly above average at.

I don’t understand why you guys think we have had any sort of sustained success running this concept.