Best WR's at creating separation.

[Jacabee]

2 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

Theirs good and then theirs great like this article is stating, Thomas is good but a possession receiver can never be put in the great category. Look at the best receivers over the past decade AB, Julio, Calvin all where able to take the top off a defense, same goes with greats of all time Rice, Moss ext. Without that element you can’t be in that category

 

I always put into context, where ever you rank Thomas you better think that highly of Courtland Sutton who is basically the same WR, the only difference being offensive system. The film says theirs nothing Thomas does better than Sutton and vice versa.

If you can complete 10/10 passes for 10 yards each or 3/10 for 30 yards each, which is “greater”. That’s not even taking into consideration that each of 10/10 gives you a new set of downs. 

[Jacabee]

1 minute ago, Jacabee said:

If you can complete 10/10 passes for 10 yards each or 3/10 for 30 yards each, which is “greater”. That’s not even taking into consideration that each of 10/10 gives you a new set of downs. 

To refocus the thread, that’s one way to apply a stat like this. The more separation ostensibly translates to a greater likelihood of success on the throw. 

[LinvilleGorge]

8 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

Theirs good and then theirs great like this article is stating, Thomas is good but a possession receiver can never be put in the great category. Look at the best receivers over the past decade AB, Julio, Calvin all where able to take the top off a defense, same goes with greats of all time Rice, Moss ext. Without that element you can’t be in that category

 

I always put into context, where ever you rank Thomas you better think that highly of Courtland Sutton who is basically the same WR, the only difference being offensive system. The film says theirs nothing Thomas does better than Sutton and vice versa.

Reigning NFL DPOY CB Stephon Gilmore ranked Michael Thomas as one of his top 5 hardest to cover WRs in the league. He's probably much better positioned to judge that than someone just crunching stats or fans just watching games.

https://www.si.com/nfl/patriots/news/2020-patriots-gilmore-toughest-receivers

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Reigning NFL DPOY CB Stephon Gilmore ranked Michael Thomas as one of his top 5 hardest to cover WRs in the league. He's probably much better positioned to judge that than someone just crunching stats or fans just watching games.

https://www.si.com/nfl/patriots/news/2020-patriots-gilmore-toughest-receivers

They mention in the article that Thomas was ranked the highest among NFL players BY NFL players.

Are we now saying that people who play football at a professional level don't know how to evaluate professional football players?

 

[LinvilleGorge]

15 minutes ago, Jacabee said:

Just to clarify and hopefully not to derail the thread,  my comment about being surprised about Teddy was in reference to what we saw last year. Is the offensive line this year demonstrably worse? Although it’s another discussion, I think that’s at least debatable, and there are good reasons to think there will be improvement. 

The point I was making was effectively that, assuming the same level of play as last year from the line, Teddy would have been “surprisingly” more successful due to better decision-making capabilities, even when assuming as true Linville’s assertion that Kyle Allen and Teddy are similarly bad at throwing deep. 

Look at Allen's first five games though. Outside of facing the Niners' elite defense his first four games he looked very, very good. He bounced back after the Niners' against the Titans and had a decent game. It was after that the wheels really fell off. That's why I don't get overly excited about Teddy looking decent over the course of five games with the Saints. Backups coming in and looking good for a brief period isn't exactly a rarity. Remember when Matt Flynn had back to back 400+ yard games for the Packers and got signed to a nice FA contract by the Seahawks only to never see the field because he got beat out by a 3rd round rookie naked Russell Wilson? Ultimately, it's what you do after NFL DCs have ample film of you in a particular offense to study that determines how good you really are.

[stbugs]

1 hour ago, LinvilleGorge said:

The reality is that we rarely ever know what these guys were being offered or if they're even fielding legit offers. Most of these rumors and "reports" usually come from the agents who are obviously trying to maximize their client's value.

Exactly. Didn’t Elway come out and say they weren’t looking to resign Paradis? Anderson commanding $14M a year? C’mon, who would believe that going into the ridiculously deep WR draft with a lot of top tier talent. He’s not Diggs nor has he ever been mentioned near that level. With this draft, $10M was a good deal for him. It’s not a horrible price for us, especially if you are going to ignore WR in the draft. $14M was absolutely floated by his agent.

[Jacabee]

2 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Look at Allen's first five games though. Outside of facing the Niners' elite defense his first four games he looked very, very good. He bounced back after the Niners' against the Titans and had a decent game. It was after that the wheels really fell off. That's why I don't get overly excited about Teddy looking decent over the course of five games with the Saints. Backups coming in and looking good for a brief period isn't exactly a rarity. Remember when Matt Flynn had back to back 400+ yard games for the Packers and got signed to a nice FA contract by the Seahawks only to never see the field because he got beat out by a 3rd round rookie naked Russell Wilson? Ultimately, it's what you do after NFL DCs have ample film of you in a particular offense to study that determines how good you really are.

Absolutely, but doesn’t this argument go both ways with Teddy? With Allen nobody had any tape to evaluate those tendencies those first five games. With Teddy they do to a degree based on his prior stints right? You’re suggesting that Teddy lacks talent based on an evaluation of his past performance but at the same time suggesting the novelty of a backup starting gives him some advantage. Do we have enough film on Teddy to evaluate him or not?

[stbugs]

10 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Look at Allen's first five games though. Outside of facing the Niners' elite defense his first four games he looked very, very good. He bounced back after the Niners' against the Titans and had a decent game. It was after that the wheels really fell off. That's why I don't get overly excited about Teddy looking decent over the course of five games with the Saints. Backups coming in and looking good for a brief period isn't exactly a rarity. Remember when Matt Flynn had back to back 400+ yard games for the Packers and got signed to a nice FA contract by the Seahawks only to never see the field because he got beat out by a 3rd round rookie naked Russell Wilson? Ultimately, it's what you do after NFL DCs have ample film of you in a particular offense to study that determines how good you really are.

I’m with you. I looked at Teddy’s logs and nobody counted the game where he played most of the game when Brees got hurt in the first quarter and they lost. He had one huge game at home against Tampa. Outside of that he was just OK and not close to Brees results even in a year where Brees appears to be fading a bit. Allen outplayed him week 17 the year before and it wasn’t close. I’ve never been impressed by Teddy. He could surprise but I don’t think it was worth going 6-10 with Teddy vs 2-14 with Grier. I don’t think Teddy is our make the playoffs and go on a run guy. He’s not what Cam was in his prime so unless we build a stud D and a good running game, we will continue to be middle of the road at best.

[LinvilleGorge]

2 minutes ago, Jacabee said:

Absolutely, but doesn’t this argument go both ways with Teddy? With Allen nobody had any tape to evaluate those tendencies those first five games. With Teddy they do to a degree based on his prior stints right? You’re suggesting that Teddy lacks talent based on an evaluation of his past performance but at the same time suggesting the novelty of a backup starting gives him some advantage. Do we have enough film on Teddy to evaluate him or not?

Teddy's Minnesota numbers were on par if not worse than Allen's. Prior tape helps somewhat, but it's not tape of that guy running that particular system. Not all that different from watching some of Allen's college tape which I'm sure some of our early opponents did.

[LinvilleGorge]

1 minute ago, stbugs said:

I’m with you. I looked at Teddy’s logs and nobody counted the game where he played most of the game when Brees got hurt in the first quarter and they lost. He had one huge game at home against Tampa. Outside of that he was just OK and not close to Brees results even in a year where Brees appears to be fading a bit. Allen outplayed him week 17 the year before and it wasn’t close. I’ve never been impressed by Teddy. He could surprise but I don’t think it was worth going 6-10 with Teddy vs 2-14 with Grier. I don’t think Teddy is our make the playoffs and go on a run guy. He’s not what Cam was in his prime so unless we build a stud D and a good running game, we will continue to be middle of the road at best.

O e huge game against TB... bingo. He had a great game against one of the worst passing defenses in the league. The rest of the time he looked mediocre at best.

[Moo Daeng]

Christ almighty y'all love negativity.

[LinvilleGorge]

14 minutes ago, Moo Daeng said:

Christ almighty y'all love negativity.

Just setting realistic expectations. If you want to be optimistic, feel free. I'm not negative on the future. My optimism rests on getting a top draft pick.

[GoobyPls]

10 hours ago, Mage said:

Marvin Harrison is one of the greatest wide receivers of all-time and he was a possession receiver.  Are you suggesting that he wasn't great either?

Harrison was able to to take the top off defenses though. Harrison has 43 receptions over 40 yards, Thomas has 7. And I wouldn’t put Harrison in the same class as some of the guys I mentioned

[GoobyPls]

10 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Reigning NFL DPOY CB Stephon Gilmore ranked Michael Thomas as one of his top 5 hardest to cover WRs in the league. He's probably much better positioned to judge that than someone just crunching stats or fans just watching games.

https://www.si.com/nfl/patriots/news/2020-patriots-gilmore-toughest-receivers

And Bill Belichick left Thomas in single coverage every snap, meanwhile when he faced Julio, AB or Tyreek he doubles them.

 

 

So who do you trust more? The smartest coach ever or Gilmore