Good thing we have Hurney right?

[Peon Awesome]

35 minutes ago, Waldo said:

I replied to the wrong person. My bad. 

You consider those good free agents or just better than nothing free agents? While ignoring the ones like Paradis and Poe or even Reed and Boston with bad multiyear deals? I completely understand one year rentals and filling out the roster with non studs but there is no need to pretend these guys are good. Good enough sure. But that's not good it's just as good as it gets. The other part of roster building isn't just who you get but how they fit together. Ron wasn't the only one that failed there miserably the last 2 years, last year being so bad they both should have be fired. 

Hurney has been hamstrung since being here. He was handed a winning team headed into training camp then he lost JR, the team being up for sale with a cheerleader running it and then Tepper coming in on training wheels with Rhule this year being the new direction. He literally couldn't do too much damage and for that I have been thankful. KK's extension was a disaster to date and showing that Hurney hasn't learned by back-loading an unearned giant extension. Olsen shouldn't either and we were saved Thomas getting one from the uproar of Olsen's deal. Shaq hasn't lived up to his yet but I at least understand the hope on that one, in his sixth year at that. 

Kalil is the hill Dave died on, we can talk about Dave's faults and mistakes plenty but he still was apart of as many winning seasons in less than half the time than Hurney. Still, Dave handed a winning team to Hurney and all he has done is lose and get worse. No it wasn't just him, but it's what he has done consistently. 11-5 with a team someone else built to 7-9 and 5-11 with a depleted roster. The entire 2.0 thing is a joke based in blind optimism and desperation. I desperately hope that Rhule can offset Hurney, that's where my hope is going. Hurney has burnt that bridge twice. There just isn't any pretend left at this point. 

My goal wasn't to review Hurney's entire tenure so much as critique the idea that every single free agent signing since his return has been "terrible". Few free agent signings are home runs. The most successful signings seem to be either a cheap veteran who overachieves and becomes a solid starter, or a pro bowl level talent you sign to a massive contract that limits your cap space. More often you overpay for someone who isn't as successful in a new scheme or a dime a dozen guy that you pay like a bona fide high end starter. Successful teams are either great drafters who stock up on cheap, high upside players and use the savings to resign their core (like the Saints) or brilliant schemers who can take veteran cast offs and translate them into part of a winning program (like Belichick/the Patriots). If you use homerun free agent signings as the barometer for success, you'll have a very short list of good GMs.

Why? Well most great players don't ever reach free agency and the few times they do, its such a rarity teams have to throw out insane money to get them. Free agency should be reserved for cheap veterans that plug in gaps and the occasional splash signing when you're ready to compete for a championshiop. The few examples I mentioned I stand by as good marks on Hurney. And like I've stated, he deserves credit for not throwing us back in cap hell with misguided free agent signings which is critical. Paradis and Poe were signings at positions of massive need, among the highest rated free agents available at the time at their position and had super easy outs built into their contract in year 2. As far as misses as a GM, they are hardly the most egregious or indefensible. But again, this wasn't meant to be a full review of his work or a ringing endorsement. Just rebuttal on the idea he's been an absolute abject failure.

[bababoey]

58 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Dave was handed Cam and Luke and a team drowning in bad contracts, so much so that we had to dump good players to field a team. Hurney was handed a winning team with one massivly bad contract. Those are not the same thing.

That's not really true.  Hurney got no recievers, 3 second year corners, a 36 year old Peppers a broken Charles Johnson and no backup QB for a starter that was about to get hurt all the time.  

Now he had talent.  Luke, CMC was a rookie, Greg was still here and for 2017 a pretty good OL.  But Greg was about to miss the next 2 years and the OL was about to get to old in spots and to injured in others to play and the DE were about to learn that time is undefeated and we found out of those 3 corners we drafted only 1 could play. 

We just didn't have enough young talent on the roster to replace the what we lost.  The way you fix that is to have a healthy franchise QB make the offense work in spite of the problems.  When Cam can't play like Cam and we have a lack of talent at the other spots 2018 & 2019 is what you get. 

[Waldo]

43 minutes ago, Peon Awesome said:

My goal wasn't to review Hurney's entire tenure so much as critique the idea that every single free agent signing since his return has been "terrible". Few free agent signings are home runs. The most successful signings seem to be either a cheap veteran who overachieves and becomes a solid starter, or a pro bowl level talent you sign to a massive contract that limits your cap space. More often you overpay for someone who isn't as successful in a new scheme or a dime a dozen guy that you pay like a bona fide high end starter. Successful teams are either great drafters who stock up on cheap, high upside players and use the savings to resign their core (like the Saints) or brilliant schemers who can take veteran cast offs and translate them into part of a winning program (like Belichick/the Patriots). If you use homerun free agent signings as the barometer for success, you'll have a very short list of good GMs.

Why? Well most great players don't ever reach free agency and the few times they do, its such a rarity teams have to throw out insane money to get them. Free agency should be reserved for cheap veterans that plug in gaps and the occasional splash signing when you're ready to compete for a championshiop. The few examples I mentioned I stand by as good marks on Hurney. And like I've stated, he deserves credit for not throwing us back in cap hell with misguided free agent signings which is critical. Paradis and Poe were signings at positions of massive need, among the highest rated free agents available at the time at their position and had super easy outs built into their contract in year 2. As far as misses as a GM, they are hardly the most egregious or indefensible. But again, this wasn't meant to be a full review of his work or a ringing endorsement. Just rebuttal on the idea he's been an absolute abject failure.

The free agent signings are just another way of grading Hurney. He picks 1st round picks well. And then? I just broke down the free agent avenue as not being his strength. Which goes into team building, which is also not something he is good at. That's the point. As stated every team has good enough players, the FAs he brought in on multiyear deals weren't worth more than a one year deals. 

Signing FAs because of massive needs on bad players is how we ended up with Kalil, it means the GM failed before the deal with the FA putting them into a bad position. As Dave did with falling into the Kalil fiasco. 

With Hurney as a GM we are 3 winning years out of 13....that is a failure anyway you look at it. He drafts 1st well and god knows what he does for the owners but building good teams that can win consistently is not something you can lay at his feet. 

[Waldo]

5 minutes ago, bababoey said:

That's not really true.  Hurney got no recievers, 3 second year corners, a 36 year old Peppers a broken Charles Johnson and no backup QB for a starter that was about to get hurt all the time.  

Now he had talent.  Luke, CMC was a rookie, Greg was still here and for 2017 a pretty good OL.  But Greg was about to miss the next 2 years and the OL was about to get to old in spots and to injured in others to play and the DE were about to learn that time is undefeated and we found out of those 3 corners we drafted only 1 could play. 

We just didn't have enough young talent on the roster to replace the what we lost.  The way you fix that is to have a healthy franchise QB make the offense work in spite of the problems.  When Cam can't play like Cam and we have a lack of talent at the other spots 2018 & 2019 is what you get. 

They went 11-5 and could have built around what was there, he didn't. Dave walked in and had negative cap that was tied up in terrible contracts. Gross and Smith were literally pushed out to make cap room even though they were better than what replaced them. We had to double dip at DT because we had none. It was apocalyptic and Dave still put together a 12-4 roster from duct-tape and pennies. 

Hurney was even given a probowl bound K that he let go. He was also given cap room, even with Kalil's massive dump of a contract. CMC, Bradbury and Shaq where all there. Ryan K and Thomas were still here. Guys like Addison and Norwell where also here. Johnson was on a cheap two year deal at that point, not his massive over payment contract that Hurney inked. We had one good CB in 2017 and that was one more than in 2012 and today. 2017 was a team ready to play and allow 2018 to improve depth and replace. It wasn't perfect by any means but saying the 2012 Panthers is the same as the 2017 Panthers is just not true. 

Team building means planing for next year and the year after as well as focusing on this year. Olsen was 32 in 2017 and Cam was a running QB that was used as a bulldozer for the 5 previous years doing what would kill any other QB in half that time. I could see giving a pass for 2018 but 2019 there were no excuses in foresight. We went into 2019 with Williams at LT for fugs sake...by choice...and our best LT that year was picked in the 6th round and played out of position. 

[Basbear]

13 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

Yeah and like how Dave signed Christian McCaffrey to a 4-year $17 million contract and then Hurney signs him for a 4-year $64 million contract smh!! 

I mean if giving a 43 percent increase to a 37 year old player(non-special teams) is whatever/shrug then doing a few more times would not matter either, right? Not like numbers add up or bad habit keeps happening. Who needs cap space anyway?

For the record I do not want Dave or view him as better than Marty. I completely was done with Dave after the Daniel Jones pick, final nail. My panther honeymoon was over with Dave for his handling of Josh Norman deal, all of it.  

[BlackCats2013]

I can't believe that Hurney is still around