Long-time, Hurney hater here. but...

[Waldo]

19 minutes ago, ickmule said:

Once again, be careful what you wish for. 

Maybe, maybe not. Marty is a known factor at this point with years of history. Can't improve unless you try. Plenty of reasons it could fail but that doesn't negate the need for improvement or the reasons it could be a lot better of a situation.

[thefuzz]

Let me know when Marty Hurney led teams start winning consistently.

 

[Khyber53]

3 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Nah. I read the whole thing and responded to the general tone.

The bottom line is you're okay with him being average because the job is hard.

I'm not. I want somebody who's actually good. But as long as Panther fans continue to settle for "well, he's okay so I guess that's good enough", that's what we'll continue to get.

Now  you're putting words in my mouth. I've rated him as above average, average or decent. Not exactly a resounding endorsement. It's a lukewarm one, at best. 

I wish he was a better one, or that we had a better one, but the truth is that if one was available, I believe we'd have snagged him. Not sure that it isn't still the plan for the near future.

I just want folks to acknowledge that we could have a worse person in the job, a much worse one. Also, it is important to point out that he has apparently learned quite a bit about cap management since his last tenure here, too. The financial side, the drafting and recruiting, the workplace environment are all important parts of this and are things that the GM has great control over. On field performance, at least during the actual season, is something that a GM can only bear a portion of the blame or praise for. And looking at the on paper rosters for the last couple of seasons, we should have been better than we were on the field. I'm going to rest most of that blame on coaching and entropy (due to age, illness, interteam relationships and motivation).

Is Marty great? Nah, he's not. Is he horrible? No way. Is he better than say 16 other team's GMs? I think you could make a case for that, but not one for being better than say 24 other team's GMs. 

I know, middling ain't winning. But who have you got on speed dial that is a guaranteed winner willing to take the job?

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Now  you're putting words in my mouth. I've rated him as above average, average or decent. Not exactly a resounding endorsement. It's a lukewarm one, at best. 

I wish he was a better one, or that we had a better one, but the truth is that if one was available, I believe we'd have snagged him. Not sure that it isn't still the plan for the near future.

I just want folks to acknowledge that we could have a worse person in the job, a much worse one. Also, it is important to point out that he has apparently learned quite a bit about cap management since his last tenure here, too. The financial side, the drafting and recruiting, the workplace environment are all important parts of this and are things that the GM has great control over. On field performance, at least during the actual season, is something that a GM can only bear a portion of the blame or praise for. And looking at the on paper rosters for the last couple of seasons, we should have been better than we were on the field. I'm going to rest most of that blame on coaching and entropy (due to age, illness, interteam relationships and motivation).

Is Marty great? Nah, he's not. Is he horrible? No way. Is he better than say 16 other team's GMs? I think you could make a case for that, but not one for being better than say 24 other team's GMs. 

I know, middling ain't winning. But who have you got on speed dial that is a guaranteed winner willing to take the job?

Didn't you use this same logic to suggest that we shouldn't fire Ron Rivera? I mean he was okay and if we replaced him, we could do worse, right?

I'm afraid "could be worse" isn't enough of an endorsement to make me feel good about keeping someone in a job. If that works for you, fine, but that's not something I'm willing to settle for.

[1of10Charnatives]

19 hours ago, RASTAN66 said:

Those of you who hate the idea of Marty as the GM...

...R-E-L-A-X...

...Marty is NOT THE GM!

Sure, his business card says "GM" on it but Marty is not functioning as a real GM akin to Lynch or Beane or Belichick.

I'm surprised at how many fans cannot grasp this fact

Hurndog has a seat at the table and his job is to gather, organize and present information --- said info is then used as The Firm goes through a collaborative process in order to make good decsions.

Due to his seat at the table Hurn is able to make his voice heard and he can give an opinion, but he has NO SOLO DECISION MAKING AUTHORITY....AT ALL.

Got it?!?

 

Interesting.

And you happen to know this because....?

[MasterAwesome]

6 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Didn't you use this same logic to suggest that we shouldn't fire Ron Rivera? I mean he was okay and if we replaced him, we could do worse, right?

I'm afraid "could be worse" isn't enough of an endorsement to make me feel good about keeping someone in a job. If that works for you, fine, but that's not something I'm willing to settle for.

Here's your repeated phrasing/talking point, but to explain your rationale this time:

"Hurney is simply mediocre...I mean sure, we could fire him and potentially hire the most incompetent GM who could gut our entire roster and set us years back from even thinking about competing, but at least we could say we didn't settle for mediocrity".

As dismissive as you like to act, "could be worse" is actually a very real concern that the owner of a multi-billion dollar investment has to consider.  It's very easy to sit at home from your couch with absolutely nothing to lose and scream obscenities at your TV and computer about the management decisions of the team, but there's something called "risk analysis" that the real world operates in.  I know that is probably a foreign concept to you, but I assure you it is not to Tepper.  He has been doing it his entire career on his way to a multi-billion dollar fortune.  Meanwhile your idea of risk analysis is whether you should order that extra burrito from Chipotle.

[RASTAN66]

3 hours ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

Interesting.

And you happen to know this because....?

In Tepper's world things just work a certain way.

The organizational structure that served him so well at Appaloosa is readily transportable amd it is obvious (to some) he has installed the same model 800 South Mint Street.

 

[imminent rogaine]

Extend hurney!? This dude is just itching to restructure KK and Paradis and fug us over for the next 3 or 4 years. Once he figures out how to pay Jake Delhomme and DeAngelo Williams more money, he’ll prob go ahead and make brown the top paid DT.

[Peon Awesome]

Is it possible Hurney is the right guy for this team with the current personnel? It's clear Tepper has a lot of trust in Rhule and wants him to have a central role in the rebuild. Marty's MO seems to be faithfully executing the vision of the coach and owner. Rhule has spoken glowingly of Hurney, and maybe he's blowing smoke but I think there are plenty of ways he could have been diplomatic in his words if he didn't like him. It's tbd how successful this draft will be but at minimum it seemed successful in getting guys that fit Rhule's vision and scheme. And now we have Suleimon to oversee Hurney's new contracts and reign in any tendency to overpay and mess up our cap space. 

Listen, if there is someone available that is clearly better equipped for success than Marty, hire him today. But firing him and starting a search from scratch without a clear plan and just hoping you find someone does not seem prudent.  Otherwise it makes sense to give it a couple years with this coach/gm combo to see if it translates to wins.

I suspect we'll see how this first year plays out. If it at least looks like the team is making strides and the draft picks are showing promise, perhaps you offer Hurney a 2 year extension. That way he doesn't feel like a year to year lame duck but you can also cut ties after the first year without eating too much money if we're not moving in the right direction. 

[TheMaulClaw]

Well I dont think Hurney is going anywhere. Tepper let him pick Rhule, and Rhule likes working with him.

[weyco2000]

On 4/29/2020 at 5:51 PM, Mr. Scot said:

As does your usual MO of trying to champion unpopular people so that you can try and act like you're smarter than everybody else.

A lot of us know how you operate, though.

Wait... what?

[DeAngelo Beason]

I loved our draft, and I've long said Hurney 2.0 IS getting the job done in spite of what people here refuse to acknowledge as bad coaching being the issue.  Dude was pulling in pro bowlers left and right at a great price to try to build a 3-4 defense on the fly and Rivera simply did not coach his guys up properly.  

All of that being said, I'm pretty sure Hurney is just happy he has a job right now.  Way too early to talk extension.  I'm starting to see little glimpses of Hurney 1.0 again and it scares me.  The Shaq and CMC contracts stick out in my head.

[Khyber53]

18 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Didn't you use this same logic to suggest that we shouldn't fire Ron Rivera? I mean he was okay and if we replaced him, we could do worse, right?

I'm afraid "could be worse" isn't enough of an endorsement to make me feel good about keeping someone in a job. If that works for you, fine, but that's not something I'm willing to settle for.

I understand where you are coming from. We can both be right on this to a certain degree. Yes, could be worse does mean you could potentially find better. It also does mean, without a doubt, that finding a worse option is a distinct possibility, and probably the most likely outcome.

In the case of Ron Rivera, I stuck with him last season until it was pretty obvious that the team had gone completely and irrevocably off the rails. He's a good coach and a good guy, but no one was going to be able to get that back on track. He had to go at that point, there was no other choice. The team had broken down due to injuries, entropy and hubris the prior year and we'd tried to inject some fast twitch players in the draft and a few aging stars in the hopes that it would gel and it just didn't. When Cam came up lame, it just all crashed and fell apart. It would have probably done so before the end of the year even if Cam had somehow stayed healthy (and really he wasn't healthy even before the foot injury, i think we can all agree). 

The question now is will Rivera come back into prominence before we do? Both teams are basically rebuilding from the ground up. Rivera brings experience and is also pretty much his own GM right now (and that might speak volumes as to how he feels that Hurney did while he was here -- he may be soured against GMs for all we know). Here, we've got our previous GM to rebuild the team and a newbie to the NFL who is bringing a whole new mindset and energy to the team. Both teams could certainly crash and burn quickly and devastatingly, exposing both Hurney and Rivera as problematic team leaders/shapers. Both teams could also go through resurgences and rise to the top of their divisions (both divisions have some obvious weakness in the near to mid futures). More likely one team or the other will collapse on itself.

Honestly, I'm pulling purely for the Panthers to rebuild correctly and solidly. I think Rhule is a winner and he can set a new standard in team building. The guy has basically put together a masters thesis in that at Temple and his doctorate dissertation on it in Baylor. That bodes well for competitiveness at the top end of the sport. Rivera... the guy is a fighter and he gets players to run through brick walls for him. He's old fashioned and stodgy, but his teams are always a tough out (okay, except for last season). 

 

[Mr. Scot]

45 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

I understand where you are coming from. We can both be right on this to a certain degree. Yes, could be worse does mean you could potentially find better. It also does mean, without a doubt, that finding a worse option is a distinct possibility, and probably the most likely outcome.

In the case of Ron Rivera, I stuck with him last season until it was pretty obvious that the team had gone completely and irrevocably off the rails. He's a good coach and a good guy, but no one was going to be able to get that back on track. He had to go at that point, there was no other choice. The team had broken down due to injuries, entropy and hubris the prior year and we'd tried to inject some fast twitch players in the draft and a few aging stars in the hopes that it would gel and it just didn't. When Cam came up lame, it just all crashed and fell apart. It would have probably done so before the end of the year even if Cam had somehow stayed healthy (and really he wasn't healthy even before the foot injury, i think we can all agree). 

The question now is will Rivera come back into prominence before we do? Both teams are basically rebuilding from the ground up. Rivera brings experience and is also pretty much his own GM right now (and that might speak volumes as to how he feels that Hurney did while he was here -- he may be soured against GMs for all we know). Here, we've got our previous GM to rebuild the team and a newbie to the NFL who is bringing a whole new mindset and energy to the team. Both teams could certainly crash and burn quickly and devastatingly, exposing both Hurney and Rivera as problematic team leaders/shapers. Both teams could also go through resurgences and rise to the top of their divisions (both divisions have some obvious weakness in the near to mid futures). More likely one team or the other will collapse on itself.

Honestly, I'm pulling purely for the Panthers to rebuild correctly and solidly. I think Rhule is a winner and he can set a new standard in team building. The guy has basically put together a masters thesis in that at Temple and his doctorate dissertation on it in Baylor. That bodes well for competitiveness at the top end of the sport. Rivera... the guy is a fighter and he gets players to run through brick walls for him. He's old fashioned and stodgy, but his teams are always a tough out (okay, except for last season). 

More likely based on what, exactly?

(besides your opinion and/or fear of change)

The problem with your "sticking with Rivera until it was obvious" is that it was obvious to a lot of us long before it was obvious to you. The same is apparently true with Marty Hurney.

You want to be an optimist? That's fine. But sticking with somebody that's been bad for a long time just because you optimistically hope they'll somehow miraculously get better isn't any way to run a football team. Imagine if we'd applied that philosophy to Jimmy Clausen.

I'll ask you the same question I asked about Rivera: How many more years would it take for you to make a decision? Rivera had nine. Marty's had fourteen. What's the threshold? Twenty? Thirty? What?