DTs who do not generate double digit sacks do not make the Hall of Fame (Brown's ceiling?)

[Mr. Scot]

5 hours ago, onmyown said:

Hurney does not trade down. Has he ever?

The year we took Jon Beason.

Pretty sure there are others but that's the first one I can think of off the top of my head.

[1of10Charnatives]

5 hours ago, Happy Panther said:

Yeah I did an analysis of every Hurney draft day move ever and he trades down just as much as he trades up. I can post it tomorrow if you want.

Please do.

Some of us are curious.

Others don't let facts get in the way of their arguments.

[Jon Snow]

6 hours ago, Happy Panther said:

Yeah I did an analysis of every Hurney draft day move ever and he trades down just as much as he trades up. I can post it tomorrow if you want.

He can't help himself, he has to do at least one trade in every draft he is involved with.  Make no mistake, he was in control of this draft.

[DeAngelo Beason]

On 4/25/2020 at 11:15 PM, bobowilson said:

Derrick Brown has a really high floor, but low ceiling.  This was a 'safe' pick, and he won't be a bust, but we should have been a lot more ambitious at the #7 spot.  When I speak about the HOF, I refer to the modern NFL.

Every top 10 pick we've had over the past two decades has been a Hall of Famer.

Sure we had a historically bad run defense, but we're not contending for the Super Bowl next year, or even the year after.  You have to aim for the Hall of Fame talent with a top 10 pick, and not  become overly concerned with need when you're years away from contention.     Don't get me wrong, Derrick Brown will likely be a fantastic pro, but the positional value for a DT who is not an elite pass rusher is just not there to justify a top 10 selection.

If you believe he is a Hall of Famer, try to think of a comparable player in the NFL he matches to.   Brown never had more than 4 sacks in any college season, and I haven't seen any analyst project him to be an elite pass rusher in the NFL.

For reference, here are the past Panthers drafted in the top 10.

 

Christian McCaffrey

Luke Kuechly

Cam Newton

Jordan Gross

Julius Peppers

What do you mean they've all been hall of famers?  Out of the 5 you listed, Peppers and Kuechly are the only locks. That's a decent hit rate, but the truth is the standard is much lower now.

I also cannot fathom how you've come to the conclusion that Derrick Brown has a low ceiling.  The guy chases down running backs.  He's a force of nature who dominated at the highest level of collegiate sports, manhandling guys that are going to be starters in the NFL with regularity.

[panthers55]

On 4/25/2020 at 11:15 PM, bobowilson said:

Derrick Brown has a really high floor, but low ceiling.  This was a 'safe' pick, and he won't be a bust, but we should have been a lot more ambitious at the #7 spot.  When I speak about the HOF, I refer to the modern NFL.

Every top 10 pick we've had over the past two decades has been a Hall of Famer.

Sure we had a historically bad run defense, but we're not contending for the Super Bowl next year, or even the year after.  You have to aim for the Hall of Fame talent with a top 10 pick, and not  become overly concerned with need when you're years away from contention.     Don't get me wrong, Derrick Brown will likely be a fantastic pro, but the positional value for a DT who is not an elite pass rusher is just not there to justify a top 10 selection.

If you believe he is a Hall of Famer, try to think of a comparable player in the NFL he matches to.   Brown never had more than 4 sacks in any college season, and I haven't seen any analyst project him to be an elite pass rusher in the NFL.

For reference, here are the past Panthers drafted in the top 10.

 

Christian McCaffrey

Luke Kuechly

Cam Newton

Jordan Gross

Julius Peppers

This assumes that Brown has a low ceiling and I disagree. He has already said he is working on his pass rush. And all DTs in the Hall of Fame were not 10 plus sack guys every year. Look at Randy White. Of the years he played when they officially kept stats on sacks he played 7 years and had double digits sacks on 3 of them.   Sacks are not the measuring stick for DTs.

[Happy Panther]

8 hours ago, onmyown said:

Hurney does not trade down. Has he ever?

 

 

2 hours ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

Please do.

Some of us are curious.

Others don't let facts get in the way of their arguments.

 

1 hour ago, Jon Snow said:

He can't help himself, he has to do at least one trade in every draft he is involved with.  Make no mistake, he was in control of this draft.

Here are all his moves. If you find an error let me know. Haven't updated for 2020.

2019  -  Seattle → Carolina (D). Seattle traded this second-round selection (37th) to Carolina in exchange for Carolina's second- and third-round selections (47th and 77th). Greg Little

Carolina traded a sixth-round selection (187th) to Denver in exchange for Denver's sixth- and seventh-round selections (212nd and 237th).[Trade 1] - Dennis Daley & Terry Godwin

2018 -  No. 85: Buffalo → Carolina (PD). Buffalo traded a third-round selection (85th) as well as a 2018 seventh-round selection (previously acquired from the LA Chargers) to Carolina in exchange for wide receiver Kelvin Benjamin.[TRADE 16] Rashaan Gulden & Andre Smith

No. 88: Carolina → Green Bay (D). Carolina traded a third-round selection (88th) to Green Bay in exchange for Green Bay's fourth- and fifth-round selections (101st and 147th).[TRADE 3] Ian Thomas 

No. 136: LA Rams → Carolina (D). The Rams traded their fourth-round selection (136th) to Carolina in exchange for Carolina's fifth- and sixth-round selections (147th and 197th).[TRADE 3] Marquis Haynes

 

2012 - No. 103: San Francisco → Carolina (D). San Francisco traded this selection to Carolina for their sixth round selection (180th) and a third round selection in 2013 (74th).[source 31] Frank Alexander

2011 - None

2010 - #89: New England → Carolina (D). New England traded this selection to Carolina for a 2011 second-round selection.[source 31] Armanti Edwards

 #112: Carolina → New York Jets (D). Carolina traded this selection to the New York Jets for a fourth-round selection it acquired from Arizona (124th overall; Carolina selected Eric Norwood) and a sixth-round selection (198th overall; Carolina selected David Gettis).[source 37] Eric Norwood & David Gettis

 #175: Oakland → Carolina (PD). Oakland traded this selection and a 2009 seventh-round selection (216th overall; Carolina selected Captain Munnerlyn) to Carolina for a 2009 sixth-round selection (202nd overall; Oakland selected Brandon Myers).[source 69] Captain Munnerlyn

2009 -  #175: Oakland → Carolina (PD). Oakland traded this selection and a 2009 seventh-round selection (216th overall; Carolina selected Captain Munnerlyn) to Carolina for a 2009 sixth-round selection (202nd overall; Oakland selected Brandon Myers).[source 69]

2008 -  #19: Philadelphia → Carolina (D). Philadelphia traded its first-round selection to Carolina for Carolina's second- and fourth-round selections in 2008 (No. 43 and 109), and Carolina's first-round pick in 2009. Everett Brown and Mike Goodson

 #67: New York Jets → Carolina (PD). The New York Jets traded their third-round and fifth-round selections to Carolina for Kris Jenkins[source 11] Charles Godfrey & Gary Barnidge

2007 - The New York Jets traded their first-round selection, the first of their second-round selections, and their fifth-round selection (25th, 59th, and 164th overall, used to select Jon Beason, Ryan Kalil, and Tim Shaw, respectively), to Carolina for this pick (14) and Carolina's sixth-round selection (191st). The Jets later packaged pick 191 with their other second-round selection (63rd) and their third-round pick (89th) which were sent to Green Bay in exchange for Green Bay's second-round selection (47th) with which the Jets would select David Harris.Crouse, Karen (April 29, 2007). "Jets Trade Up to Draft Revis With 14th Pick". New York Times. Archived from the original on October 28, 2011. Retrieved October 28, 2011. Jon Beason, Ryan Kalil, and Tim Shaw.

2006 - Received • 2006 third round pick (#88-James Anderson) from Bears on 2006-04-24 as compensation for restricted free agent Ricky Manning Jr. 

2005 -  No 45: Carolina → Seattle. Carolina traded its second-round selection (45th) to Seattle in exchange for Seattle's second- and two fourth-round selections (54th, 121st and 126th) Eric Shelton and Stefan LeFors

No. 89: Green Bay → Carolina. Green Bay traded its third-round selection (89th) to Carolina in exchange for two fourth-round selections (115th and 126th) Atiyyah Ellison 

2004 - Traded • 2004 first round pick (#31-Rashaun Woods) • 2004 fourth round pick (#127-Richard Seigler) to 49ers for • 2004 first round pick (#28-Chris Gamble) on 2004-04-24 Chris Gamble 

2003 -  Minnesota held the 7th pick, but the Vikings did not make their selection in the allotted time. By rule, they could make a selection at any time afterwards, however Jacksonville and Carolina were able to make their own picks before Minnesota could make its own.[source 1]

New England (D). New England acquired this selection (45) from Carolina for New England's second-rounder (#50) and fourth-round selection(#120).[source 2] Bruce Nelson

 #82: Denver → Carolina (D). Carolina acquired this pick from Denver (82) for Carolina's two fourth-rounders (#108) and (#120 acquired from New England) and Carolina's seventh-round selection(#227).[source 2] Ricky Manning 

119: Miami → Carolina (PD). Miami traded this pick along with DE Al Wallace to Carolina for DE Jay Williams.[source 17] Colin Branch 

 #181: Carolina → Miami (D). Carolina traded this pick to Miami for two seventh-round choices (#226 and #247).[source 3] Walter Young and Casey Moore

2002 - Traded • 2002 third round pick (#67-Matt Schobel) to Bengals for • 2002 third round pick (#73-Will Witherspoon) • 2002 fifth round pick (#145-Kyle Johnson) on 2002-04-20 Will Witherspoon  & Kyle Johnson

 

 

[Madwolf]

So he's a failure if he's not a Hall of Famer?

My God...

[TheCasillas]

23 minutes ago, Happy Panther said:

 

 

Here are all his moves. If you find an error let me know. Haven't updated for 2020.

2019  -  Seattle → Carolina (D). Seattle traded this second-round selection (37th) to Carolina in exchange for Carolina's second- and third-round selections (47th and 77th). Greg Little

Carolina traded a sixth-round selection (187th) to Denver in exchange for Denver's sixth- and seventh-round selections (212nd and 237th).[Trade 1] - Dennis Daley & Terry Godwin

2018 -  No. 85: Buffalo → Carolina (PD). Buffalo traded a third-round selection (85th) as well as a 2018 seventh-round selection (previously acquired from the LA Chargers) to Carolina in exchange for wide receiver Kelvin Benjamin.[TRADE 16] Rashaan Gulden & Andre Smith

No. 88: Carolina → Green Bay (D). Carolina traded a third-round selection (88th) to Green Bay in exchange for Green Bay's fourth- and fifth-round selections (101st and 147th).[TRADE 3] Ian Thomas 

No. 136: LA Rams → Carolina (D). The Rams traded their fourth-round selection (136th) to Carolina in exchange for Carolina's fifth- and sixth-round selections (147th and 197th).[TRADE 3] Marquis Haynes

 

2012 - No. 103: San Francisco → Carolina (D). San Francisco traded this selection to Carolina for their sixth round selection (180th) and a third round selection in 2013 (74th).[source 31] Frank Alexander

2011 - None

2010 - #89: New England → Carolina (D). New England traded this selection to Carolina for a 2011 second-round selection.[source 31] Armanti Edwards

 #112: Carolina → New York Jets (D). Carolina traded this selection to the New York Jets for a fourth-round selection it acquired from Arizona (124th overall; Carolina selected Eric Norwood) and a sixth-round selection (198th overall; Carolina selected David Gettis).[source 37] Eric Norwood & David Gettis

 #175: Oakland → Carolina (PD). Oakland traded this selection and a 2009 seventh-round selection (216th overall; Carolina selected Captain Munnerlyn) to Carolina for a 2009 sixth-round selection (202nd overall; Oakland selected Brandon Myers).[source 69] Captain Munnerlyn

2009 -  #175: Oakland → Carolina (PD). Oakland traded this selection and a 2009 seventh-round selection (216th overall; Carolina selected Captain Munnerlyn) to Carolina for a 2009 sixth-round selection (202nd overall; Oakland selected Brandon Myers).[source 69]

2008 -  #19: Philadelphia → Carolina (D). Philadelphia traded its first-round selection to Carolina for Carolina's second- and fourth-round selections in 2008 (No. 43 and 109), and Carolina's first-round pick in 2009. Everett Brown and Mike Goodson

 #67: New York Jets → Carolina (PD). The New York Jets traded their third-round and fifth-round selections to Carolina for Kris Jenkins[source 11] Charles Godfrey & Gary Barnidge

2007 - The New York Jets traded their first-round selection, the first of their second-round selections, and their fifth-round selection (25th, 59th, and 164th overall, used to select Jon Beason, Ryan Kalil, and Tim Shaw, respectively), to Carolina for this pick (14) and Carolina's sixth-round selection (191st). The Jets later packaged pick 191 with their other second-round selection (63rd) and their third-round pick (89th) which were sent to Green Bay in exchange for Green Bay's second-round selection (47th) with which the Jets would select David Harris.Crouse, Karen (April 29, 2007). "Jets Trade Up to Draft Revis With 14th Pick". New York Times. Archived from the original on October 28, 2011. Retrieved October 28, 2011. Jon Beason, Ryan Kalil, and Tim Shaw.

2006 - Received • 2006 third round pick (#88-James Anderson) from Bears on 2006-04-24 as compensation for restricted free agent Ricky Manning Jr. 

2005 -  No 45: Carolina → Seattle. Carolina traded its second-round selection (45th) to Seattle in exchange for Seattle's second- and two fourth-round selections (54th, 121st and 126th) Eric Shelton and Stefan LeFors

No. 89: Green Bay → Carolina. Green Bay traded its third-round selection (89th) to Carolina in exchange for two fourth-round selections (115th and 126th) Atiyyah Ellison 

2004 - Traded • 2004 first round pick (#31-Rashaun Woods) • 2004 fourth round pick (#127-Richard Seigler) to 49ers for • 2004 first round pick (#28-Chris Gamble) on 2004-04-24 Chris Gamble 

2003 -  Minnesota held the 7th pick, but the Vikings did not make their selection in the allotted time. By rule, they could make a selection at any time afterwards, however Jacksonville and Carolina were able to make their own picks before Minnesota could make its own.[source 1]

New England (D). New England acquired this selection (45) from Carolina for New England's second-rounder (#50) and fourth-round selection(#120).[source 2] Bruce Nelson

 #82: Denver → Carolina (D). Carolina acquired this pick from Denver (82) for Carolina's two fourth-rounders (#108) and (#120 acquired from New England) and Carolina's seventh-round selection(#227).[source 2] Ricky Manning 

119: Miami → Carolina (PD). Miami traded this pick along with DE Al Wallace to Carolina for DE Jay Williams.[source 17] Colin Branch 

 #181: Carolina → Miami (D). Carolina traded this pick to Miami for two seventh-round choices (#226 and #247).[source 3] Walter Young and Casey Moore

2002 - Traded • 2002 third round pick (#67-Matt Schobel) to Bengals for • 2002 third round pick (#73-Will Witherspoon) • 2002 fifth round pick (#145-Kyle Johnson) on 2002-04-20 Will Witherspoon  & Kyle Johnson

 

 

Some of these moves were actually pretty smooth. Especially when your win rate is less than 10%  in rounds 4 and on in the draft.

[cmichd]

On 4/25/2020 at 11:37 PM, ecu88 said:

I was Simmons fan but I cannot believe Bob is missing what we have done!

Brown is our Reggie White in NT form, he impacts the whole line!

KK is extremely happy! 

Brown helps others get "HoF sTaTz" that Bob considers to be so important.

Brown frees up KK to finally be able go work instead of being the one double teamed everytime like the last 2 years.

Brown taking 2 Olinemen frees up our Ends to feast!

On top of that, Brown wants to play with Bravvion in the game.

Imagine this line-up.

KK - Obada - Bravvion - Brown as the big line 

Are you saying that NFL linemen can't take Brown on one on one and win? 

[cmichd]

16 hours ago, Basbear said:

Love him or hate, bobo brings up hot takes. If Brown can do what he did in the SEC for the next 10, hes in the hof. Plus I do not care about sacks, I want constant havoc. Lastly I do not care about HOF either, give me Superbowl MVPs.

LOL LOL LOL when was the last time a DT was the MVP of the SUPERBOWL?

[ecu88]

55 minutes ago, cmichd said:

Are you saying that NFL linemen can't take Brown on one on one and win? 

 

[kungfoodude]

4 hours ago, Jon Snow said:

He can't help himself, he has to do at least one trade in every draft he is involved with.  Make no mistake, he was in control of this draft.

The Saints always trade up. Look at Sean Payton's history.

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, cmichd said:

LOL LOL LOL when was the last time a DT was the MVP of the SUPERBOWL?

It is rare any defender gets MVP, much less a DL.

[ecu88]

10 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

It is rare any defender gets MVP, much less a DL.

Exactly!

DTs are still critical cogs but WuT bOuT MvPz crowd kills me man lol

Chris Jones just make the KC defense so much better when he was in during the playoffs and winning the SB.

Fletcher Cox was a beast.

Brown is going to be great here and those that hated the pick will be like, "I wUz On TeH wAgOn B4 u"! (•_•) (-_-) (•_•)