D-Line vs Secondary

[GOAT]

great teams always seem to have a great defensive line and a great safety.

we lack both...

[PleaseCutStewart]

11 hours ago, AU-panther said:

Everyone here knows that we have a huge need at both CB and D-Line, because of this every thread about it seems to get into an argument on which is more important. Everyone likes to say that a great D-Line makes the secondary’s job easier, but in reality, it goes both ways.

Actually, for the beginning of the play, first 3-4 secs the secondary is more important and you could make the argument that your secondary allows your D-Line to be great.  A average D-line with a great secondary will get as many, if not more pressures than a great D-Line with a average secondary.  Especially true against certain teams, namely ones that are proficient at getting the ball out quick.  The average fan notices the DE get the sack, what they don't notice is that the QB had to go to his third read because the CBs were doing their job.

When you look at the sequence of an NFL snap this starts to make more sense, and I’ll explain.

Here is a study that looked at the causes of a sack:

http://archive.advancedfootballanalytics.com/2013/05/exploring-causes-of-sack-pt-1.html

 

Basically, the average sack takes 4.3 sec, average time to throw 2.7 secs.  To add to this, here is Aaron Donald’s average sack time since 2016:

 

https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/02/nfl-rams-aaron-donald-time-to-sack-stat/

 

for those too lazy to click, its 3.73 secs and leads all DTs

 

I know some of you all are thinking that some sacks seem to happen a lot quicker: here is a list of fastest sacks last season:

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/top-plays/fastest-sacks/2019/all

 

Quickest was 1.47 secs by a CB, 5^th quickest was 2.04 secs by Vernon Butler.  Those sacks aren’t because of how great those rushers are but probably because an assignment was missed by the O-Line. Basically, the fastest sack you are going to see is around 2 seconds, but those are missed assignments, so it really doesn’t’ matter who your rusher is. 

 

If you discount the really quick sacks because of missed assignments or total wiffs, and you discount the really long sacks 6 secs or more the average time of a normal sack is probably closer to 3.5 secs.

Think about it this way, you could have 4 Aaron Donalds on your D-line and if they other QB is getting the ball out quickly it won't matter.  On a side note this is why the Patriots are so good.

 

Basically, your secondary must be good enough to allow your D-Line to be great.

 

For those of you too cool for analytics, here is a tweet by Calais Campbell, who is a D-Lineman for the Ravens, responding for a tweet by PFF.

 

 

 

 

For those that don’t know the Ravens have added some nice pieces to their secondary.  He knows by doing that his chance of being productive goes up.

 

I’m not suggesting that we have to spend a first round pick on a CB, although I wouldn’t mind, but this idea of treating your secondary as an afterthought just because the D-line will make them look good is poor team building in my opinion.

 

You mean that same Ravens team that let Derrick Henry run it down their throats the entire game in the playoffs, even though they knew that the Titans were going to do that?

[PleaseCutStewart]

3 hours ago, micnificent28 said:

Run defense isn't as highly saught after as it use to be. I am in no way saying lets get ran all over and have a terrible run defense. but I am not taking a run stuff only guy at 7.

Looks like somebody didn't do their homework on Brown...

[micnificent28]

1 minute ago, PleaseCutStewart said:

Looks like somebody didn't do their homework on Brown...

No sir YOU didnt do your homework.

[PleaseCutStewart]

Just now, micnificent28 said:

No sir YOU didnt do your homework.

Alright grammar nazi... I didn't want to get into this battle... You also forgot a punctuation after sir

[micnificent28]

32 minutes ago, PleaseCutStewart said:

Alright grammar nazi... I didn't want to get into this battle... You also forgot a punctuation after sir

Wasnt correcting your grammar, I was point out it is YOU who aren't sure what your talking about. could care less about grammar on a football website.

[Ricky Spanish]

12 minutes ago, micnificent28 said:

Wasnt correcting your grammar, I was point out it is YOU who aren't sure what your talking about. could care less about grammar on a football website.

Yes, but you should care more

[Matt62881]

12 hours ago, AU-panther said:

Everyone here knows that we have a huge need at both CB and D-Line, because of this every thread about it seems to get into an argument on which is more important. Everyone likes to say that a great D-Line makes the secondary’s job easier, but in reality, it goes both ways.

Actually, for the beginning of the play, first 3-4 secs the secondary is more important and you could make the argument that your secondary allows your D-Line to be great.  A average D-line with a great secondary will get as many, if not more pressures than a great D-Line with a average secondary.  Especially true against certain teams, namely ones that are proficient at getting the ball out quick.  The average fan notices the DE get the sack, what they don't notice is that the QB had to go to his third read because the CBs were doing their job.

When you look at the sequence of an NFL snap this starts to make more sense, and I’ll explain.

Here is a study that looked at the causes of a sack:

http://archive.advancedfootballanalytics.com/2013/05/exploring-causes-of-sack-pt-1.html

 

Basically, the average sack takes 4.3 sec, average time to throw 2.7 secs.  To add to this, here is Aaron Donald’s average sack time since 2016:

 

https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/02/nfl-rams-aaron-donald-time-to-sack-stat/

 

for those too lazy to click, its 3.73 secs and leads all DTs

 

I know some of you all are thinking that some sacks seem to happen a lot quicker: here is a list of fastest sacks last season:

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/top-plays/fastest-sacks/2019/all

 

Quickest was 1.47 secs by a CB, 5^th quickest was 2.04 secs by Vernon Butler.  Those sacks aren’t because of how great those rushers are but probably because an assignment was missed by the O-Line. Basically, the fastest sack you are going to see is around 2 seconds, but those are missed assignments, so it really doesn’t’ matter who your rusher is. 

 

If you discount the really quick sacks because of missed assignments or total wiffs, and you discount the really long sacks 6 secs or more the average time of a normal sack is probably closer to 3.5 secs.

Think about it this way, you could have 4 Aaron Donalds on your D-line and if they other QB is getting the ball out quickly it won't matter.  On a side note this is why the Patriots are so good.

 

Basically, your secondary must be good enough to allow your D-Line to be great.

 

For those of you too cool for analytics, here is a tweet by Calais Campbell, who is a D-Lineman for the Ravens, responding for a tweet by PFF.

 

 

 

 

For those that don’t know the Ravens have added some nice pieces to their secondary.  He knows by doing that his chance of being productive goes up.

 

I’m not suggesting that we have to spend a first round pick on a CB, although I wouldn’t mind, but this idea of treating your secondary as an afterthought just because the D-line will make them look good is poor team building in my opinion.

 

This is true to an extent but the DT position Brown plays has effect on more then just the passing game. This is why I'm all for 1. DT 2. CB in the draft and if the cb we want looks like he's gonna be gone by our pick I would even trade up. Also resign Ross please, imo the first 2 seconds or so of the route are the easiest to cover the longer the play goes on the harder it becomes but I think Ross, Donte and a drafted cb can cover for 3 plus seconds. 

[Panthero]

9 hours ago, micnificent28 said:

show me one that says hes great pass rusher.

Very slippery of you. So now its "great" pass rusher", it was hes "only" a run stuffer.

To see his pass rush shown respect, go to nfl draft network. All five guys mention his ability to create pressure on passing downs, with one saying his upside is double digit sacks, if he improves his technique. Thats certainly a lot of sacks for a "run stuffer" only wouldnt you say?

[Panthero]

Pass Rush Counters - How many guys at this size do you know that can snatch an OT and dip to run the edge? He can. Impressive power in his hump move to work back across face and his rip/dip provides urgency to push through on a linear attack to the quarterback. Diverse and well developed here.

 

Has some absurd reps as a slanter/one-gap player where he shows more than the requisite slipperiness and flexibility to clear his hips/shoulders into the backfield and challenge for TFLs and sacks.

 

Pass Rush Technique: Flashy and growing here. Is far too willing to result to the bull rush at times, given his elite length, hand/punch strength, and athleticism to finish rushes against a half-man relationship. Works his way into his opponent's frame, pushes pocket depth, but doesn't finish a majority of rushes by working to a shoulder and trying to separate into the backfield. Best rushes come from wins off of first step that allow for dip/rip into backfield or quick inside counter with club/hump/spin. Push pull shows up occasionally and looks strong but again, looking for more frequency.

 

 Adding consistency to his hand usage and timing as a pass rusher will further unlock what could be a double-digit sack ceiling at the NFL level. Brown

 

Derrick aligns in various positions up front, including the 1 shade, the 3 technique and the 5 for the Tiger defense. He has excellent reactive athleticism for a young man that size. He has schematic versatility and true positional flexibility to play in either a single gap scheme as the “shade” or the “3” or as a “0” or a “5 Tech” in an odd front.   -So hes not just a nose tackle.

He is a 3 down player with very good pass rush ability in passing situation. He has excellent get off for a big man and quickly gets out of his stance and upfield. In the passing game, he is extremely disruptive and generates production typically with an excellent bull rush. He has some “wiggle” in his hips and will almost always get pressure if he is single blocked. 

 

Pass Rush - The man gets after it. Fires off the ball with urgency and a plan. Showcases good pass rush variety in terms of moves. Does well to attack the edges of blockers while using his hands to grease angles and power through to apply heat on the quarterback. Dominant bull rush. Skillset should lead to good production in the NFL as a pass rusher. 

 

Brown is a game-wrecker for opponents and he presents high value as both a run stopper and pass rusher in the NFL.

 

True Pass Rush Moves: Right now, Brown’s game is primarily centered around strictly overpowering his matchups with an occasional mixture of a pass rush move. Learning to utilize a mixture of the two will help him become even more of an effective pass rusher who can be a consistent threat during all third-down situations. -  This was under his negatives

 

A three down threat that has the ability to affect games in every way imaginable, he isn't just a space eater that occupies multiple gaps. His ability to penetrate and get up-the-field constantly wreaks havoc on offenses and forces them to game plan around the issues that he presents. 

so hes a three down player who affects the run and pass, allows teammates to face single coverage and does it few pass rush moves.

Whats gonna happen when this guy learns from an NFL coach the finer details of pass rush technique? 

[micnificent28]

2 hours ago, Panthero said:

Pass Rush Counters - How many guys at this size do you know that can snatch an OT and dip to run the edge? He can. Impressive power in his hump move to work back across face and his rip/dip provides urgency to push through on a linear attack to the quarterback. Diverse and well developed here.

 

Has some absurd reps as a slanter/one-gap player where he shows more than the requisite slipperiness and flexibility to clear his hips/shoulders into the backfield and challenge for TFLs and sacks.

 

Pass Rush Technique: Flashy and growing here. Is far too willing to result to the bull rush at times, given his elite length, hand/punch strength, and athleticism to finish rushes against a half-man relationship. Works his way into his opponent's frame, pushes pocket depth, but doesn't finish a majority of rushes by working to a shoulder and trying to separate into the backfield. Best rushes come from wins off of first step that allow for dip/rip into backfield or quick inside counter with club/hump/spin. Push pull shows up occasionally and looks strong but again, looking for more frequency.

 

 Adding consistency to his hand usage and timing as a pass rusher will further unlock what could be a double-digit sack ceiling at the NFL level. Brown

 

Derrick aligns in various positions up front, including the 1 shade, the 3 technique and the 5 for the Tiger defense. He has excellent reactive athleticism for a young man that size. He has schematic versatility and true positional flexibility to play in either a single gap scheme as the “shade” or the “3” or as a “0” or a “5 Tech” in an odd front.   -So hes not just a nose tackle.

He is a 3 down player with very good pass rush ability in passing situation. He has excellent get off for a big man and quickly gets out of his stance and upfield. In the passing game, he is extremely disruptive and generates production typically with an excellent bull rush. He has some “wiggle” in his hips and will almost always get pressure if he is single blocked. 

 

Pass Rush - The man gets after it. Fires off the ball with urgency and a plan. Showcases good pass rush variety in terms of moves. Does well to attack the edges of blockers while using his hands to grease angles and power through to apply heat on the quarterback. Dominant bull rush. Skillset should lead to good production in the NFL as a pass rusher. 

 

Brown is a game-wrecker for opponents and he presents high value as both a run stopper and pass rusher in the NFL.

 

True Pass Rush Moves: Right now, Brown’s game is primarily centered around strictly overpowering his matchups with an occasional mixture of a pass rush move. Learning to utilize a mixture of the two will help him become even more of an effective pass rusher who can be a consistent threat during all third-down situations. -  This was under his negatives

 

A three down threat that has the ability to affect games in every way imaginable, he isn't just a space eater that occupies multiple gaps. His ability to penetrate and get up-the-field constantly wreaks havoc on offenses and forces them to game plan around the issues that he presents. 

so hes a three down player who affects the run and pass, allows teammates to face single coverage and does it few pass rush moves.

Whats gonna happen when this guy learns from an NFL coach the finer details of pass rush technique? 

I appreciate your optimistic views.... but saying he has a lot of pass rush moves when everyone says he's a bull rusher is funny. He's a flicking nose tackle stop making him in to some turn the edge flexible guy when he had a historically bad combine... hes not a pass rusher. He can collapse the pocket but he and swimming and spinning past guys like he's burns or something. Hes to big for you to think that.

 

[Panthero]

Where is your single source from that only slightly support your point? Thats where you betray yourself. Nothing in that review that say hes only a run stuffer. 

[Wes21]

The line and the secondary need to work together, regardless of which one happens to be the dominant one.  But I will always remember back when Denver had that great defense, and they asked Amari Cooper (who faced them twice a year) what made the secondary so great.  This was back when they had Talib, Harris and Roby.  He basically said, with a little bit of ego of course "they ain't that great, I can beat them.  The problem is every time I try to set up a move, the pass rush has already gotten to Derek so when I break open, he's sacked or the ball has already come out."

[Matt62881]

4 hours ago, Panthero said:

Very slippery of you. So now its "great" pass rusher", it was hes "only" a run stuffer.

To see his pass rush shown respect, go to nfl draft network. All five guys mention his ability to create pressure on passing downs, with one saying his upside is double digit sacks, if he improves his technique. Thats certainly a lot of sacks for a "run stuffer" only wouldnt you say?

This is what's so special about him he is a true 3 down run stuffer who can rush the passer with the best 3 techs on passing downs. This is why he's being scouted so high. Simmons would be great but a luxury without brown he would be neutralized. Okudah would be awesome if Brown isn't there as that is our 2nd biggest position of need, we need a starting DT and CB in the first 2 rounds. However if Brown is there Okuda would be luxury due to a deep CB class I would trade up to snag Henderson if he fell. Brown is the only DT of his kind in this draft and where as there is a gap between Okudah and the next CB, 2nd round guys like Bradberry have turned out fine.