D-Line vs Secondary

[AU-panther]

Everyone here knows that we have a huge need at both CB and D-Line, because of this every thread about it seems to get into an argument on which is more important. Everyone likes to say that a great D-Line makes the secondary’s job easier, but in reality, it goes both ways.

Actually, for the beginning of the play, first 3-4 secs the secondary is more important and you could make the argument that your secondary allows your D-Line to be great.  A average D-line with a great secondary will get as many, if not more pressures than a great D-Line with a average secondary.  Especially true against certain teams, namely ones that are proficient at getting the ball out quick.  The average fan notices the DE get the sack, what they don't notice is that the QB had to go to his third read because the CBs were doing their job.

When you look at the sequence of an NFL snap this starts to make more sense, and I’ll explain.

Here is a study that looked at the causes of a sack:

http://archive.advancedfootballanalytics.com/2013/05/exploring-causes-of-sack-pt-1.html

Basically, the average sack takes 4.3 sec, average time to throw 2.7 secs.  To add to this, here is Aaron Donald’s average sack time since 2016:

https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/02/nfl-rams-aaron-donald-time-to-sack-stat/

for those too lazy to click, its 3.73 secs and leads all DTs

I know some of you all are thinking that some sacks seem to happen a lot quicker: here is a list of fastest sacks last season:

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/top-plays/fastest-sacks/2019/all

Quickest was 1.47 secs by a CB, 5^th quickest was 2.04 secs by Vernon Butler.  Those sacks aren’t because of how great those rushers are but probably because an assignment was missed by the O-Line. Basically, the fastest sack you are going to see is around 2 seconds, but those are missed assignments, so it really doesn’t’ matter who your rusher is. 

If you discount the really quick sacks because of missed assignments or total wiffs, and you discount the really long sacks 6 secs or more the average time of a normal sack is probably closer to 3.5 secs.

Think about it this way, you could have 4 Aaron Donalds on your D-line and if they other QB is getting the ball out quickly it won't matter.  On a side note this is why the Patriots are so good.

Basically, your secondary must be good enough to allow your D-Line to be great.

For those of you too cool for analytics, here is a tweet by Calais Campbell, who is a D-Lineman for the Ravens, responding for a tweet by PFF.

 

 

 

For those that don’t know the Ravens have added some nice pieces to their secondary.  He knows by doing that his chance of being productive goes up.

I’m not suggesting that we have to spend a first round pick on a CB, although I wouldn’t mind, but this idea of treating your secondary as an afterthought just because the D-line will make them look good is poor team building in my opinion.

[45catfan]

You are completely discounting DL disruption of the QB.  Hurries and getting the QB off his spot is nearly as effective as a sack.  If sack totals equates to top passing defense then why were we 2nd (only 1 behind the Steelers) in sacks and 19th/20th in key defensive pass categories?

[LinvilleGorge]

You completely failed to mention run D. You know, that segment that we were pretty much dead last in practically every measurable category last season.

DL

[Panthero]

Id go DL first, then grab iggy or gladney in the second. Preferably iggy since his parents were Olympic athletes and hes only played cb for two years. 

[45catfan]

I looked at last year's passing defensive stats and got at the top 10 teams in sacks, completion percentage and yards per game.  The results were:

-Half of teams were top 10 in completion percentage were also top 10 in sacks.

-Only 4 teams is passing yards allowed per game were also top 10 in sacks.

So that quick little exercise shows that sacks marginally affects the overall pass defense.

I'd rather have a DL that continuously harasses the QB than a defense high on sack totals and mediocre/poor across most other key defensive categories.

[jfra78]

DL does more than get sacks, they set the tone for the whole defense.  Everything starts from the line, its basic understanding in football that games are won in the trenches.

[45catfan]

Here you go.  Sacks brings praise and name recognition, but pressures/hurries are most effective in pass defense.

Pressures Are Key in Pass Defense

 Aaron Rodgers led 37 qualified quarterbacks last season with a 93.8 passer rating while under pressure; 27 of those signal callers had a passer rating higher than 93.8 on attempts coming from a clean pocket. The average NFL passer rating fell from 99.3 to just 64.6 last season when pressured.

[AU-panther]

5 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

You completely failed to mention run D. You know, that segment that we were pretty much dead last in practically every measurable category last season.

DL

We were, and it needs to improve, but being good at is actually overrated.  9/12 playoff teams last year proved that.

Don't get me wrong, everything you do on the football field is important but some are more important and influence winning and losing more then others.

I just don't agree with the notion that a great D-line solves all of your problems.  If your secondary is so bad that you have to play soft then certain QBs who can get the ball out quick will neutralize your DL.

Your secondary has to be good enough to allow your DL to do their job and at times ours hasn't been.

I'm not saying don't draft Brown or Kinlaw, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if this organization spent a first or second on a CB, or what about a higher pick on a coverage safety? 

With our old coach we always seemed to devalue the back 4

Average D-line with 4 secs of coverage will do better then a great D-Line with 2.5 secs of coverage, I'm not sure why people can't understand that.

Everyone likes to say that the D-line helps in both the pass and run.  You can also make the argument that the cornerbacks influence a pass play for the entire time.

In reality your D-line doesn't really influence the pass play until >2.5 secs happen.  Whether its you, me or Aaron Donald rushing the passer if the QB throws it in 2.5 secs it really doesn't matter, but if that CB can cover the WR for that amount of time then Donald probably has a better chance of getting to the QB then you or I.

 

[micnificent28]

Run defense isn't as highly saught after as it use to be. I am in no way saying lets get ran all over and have a terrible run defense. but I am not taking a run stuff only guy at 7.

[Panthero]

21 minutes ago, micnificent28 said:

Run defense isn't as highly saught after as it use to be. I am in no way saying lets get ran all over and have a terrible run defense. but I am not taking a run stuff only guy at 7.

Lucky for you Brown isnt just a run stuff only guy as has been mentioned a few times now. 

[micnificent28]

22 minutes ago, Panthero said:

Lucky for you Brown isnt just a run stuff only guy as has been mentioned a few times now. 

I mean thats like saying Brian burns isn't only a Pass Rusher so yeah...

[Panthero]

Believe what you want. You cherry pick the analysts. Go read even one of the 5 reports on him from nfl draft network. Or i dont know sit down and actually watch him against bama, lsu, uga, etc. Im sure your a good dude, but your position on this is wrong

[HardcoreHokie]

The more I read this debate, the more I lean totally towards Isaiah Simmons.  

It’s not a pick one:  RUN STUFF or PASS COVERAGE or PRESSURE/SACK THE QUARTERBACK.  Simmons will line up all over the field, get double digit sacks, hits on the QB, stuff the run, and cover WR’s, TE’s, and RB’s out of the backfield.  On any given down. 

And guess who would spy Russel Wilson, Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Deshawn Watson, etc etc whenever we face them?

At 6’4, 240 lbs, Simmons is slightly bigger and longer than Luke (MLB).  And basically the same size/length as Brian Burns (EDGE/DE).

Yet with his 4.39 forty, he’s faster than many #1 CB’s.  He’ll have no problem covering RB’s, TE’s, and #2 WR’s...

Dude is a freak.

Simmons is a Swiss Army Knife that can literally do it all...on a bad defense that will likely NEED HIM TO DO IT ALL at various different times over the next 5+ years (as we upgrade the talent around him).

Go with the versatile guy who can make an impact on any down...and who also just happens to be arguably the highest rated prospect of the mix.

Assuming, of course, that he’s still on the board.  (Fingers crossed).

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/isaiah-simmons

[micnificent28]

18 minutes ago, Panthero said:

Believe what you want. You cherry pick the analysts. Go read even one of the 5 reports on him from nfl draft network. Or i dont know sit down and actually watch him against bama, lsu, uga, etc. Im sure your a good dude, but your position on this is wrong

show me one that says hes great pass rusher.