Trai Turner is being shopped around, per ESPN

[WOW!!]

10 minutes ago, stbugs said:

We did it twice. Gross was quoted in the Athletic (I don’t subscribe, but it was posted in here) that in 2010 we did this where if any player didn’t fit the 5 year plan they were gone. We’ve started Weinke and Clausen in 2001 and 2010. Those were give up seasons and we got Cam and Luke and Peppers and Gross with picks 1 and 9 and 2 and 8 the next two drafts.

People really do have short term memory now. Yes, the plan is a 4-5 year rebuild. The last two times we made the playoffs in year 2 and 3 and SB in year 2 and 5. 2003 was a ridiculously quick turnaround. 2015 is far more likely although it sure felt like we should have had a better finish in 2013.

2010 had 6 to 7 pro bowl players on it still in their prime... Smitty, Gross, Kali, TD, Beason, CJ, Dwill and Stew.  Plus solid starters Wharton, Lafell and Piggy...

2001 - We kept a defense with Rucker, Buck, Jenkins, Morgan, Witherspoon and Minter intact.. The Oline was pretty much intact.. And You had Smitty, Moose, Hoover and Foster as weapons..

This doesn't look like the teams in those years.  

[WOW!!]

19 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

The problem is, you don't need to tear it down, until it is falling in around you...that's where we are.

This home has a crumbling foundation, we can continue to patch it up and try to make it through the next year, but that's all you are doing, putting a patch on it....to go 6=10 or 7-9.

Time to rebuild the home.

I'm glad you're young Fuzz but some of us are getting older and aren't really ready for a 6 to 7 year rebuild to relevance.  . 

Please tell me when a total tear down has worked??

Bucs still the Bucs right and they have went thru 3 or 4 regime changes..

[pantherclaw]

1 hour ago, WOW!! said:

This is cool and all.. But as a fan this is seriously looking like a 4 to 5 year rebuild.. And I haven't seen where that works..

Nothing takes that long in the modern NFL, unless your the browns, dolphins, etc. 

I simply disagree. 

[thefuzz]

1 minute ago, WOW!! said:

I'm glad you're young Fuzz but some of us are getting older and aren't really ready for a 6 to 7 year rebuild to relevance.  . 

Please tell me when a total tear down has worked??

Bucs still the Bucs right and they have went thru 3 or 4 regime changes..

I don't follow other teams and their offseason moves enough to tell you when total tear downs work.

What I can tell you, is that in the NFL, if you don't have an all time great QB under center, to win you likely need a QB on a rookie deal, and a strong team around him to win the Lombardi.  That typically comes from keeping your salary cap in check, drafting well, hitting on a QB, and having just enough money to plug in a needed starter in FA to push you over the top.

Seattle used this to get to back to back SB's, and have now sustained a 10 year period of consistent winning.  The Steelers did that with Big Ben.  The Chiefs are doing it now with Mahommes.  The Eagles with Wentz.  The Ravens almost did it with Lamarr, and the Rams got there as well 2 years ago before they paid Goff.

There is a blueprint, but we will need to be both lucky, and good if we want a trophy here.  We have been lucky here and there as a franchise, but rarely would I call this a good, or smart organization.

[WOW!!]

3 minutes ago, pantherclaw said:

Nothing takes that long in the modern NFL, unless your the browns, dolphins, etc. 

I simply disagree. 

Bucs, Jets, Raiders.. 

But Hopefully not. 

[thefuzz]

7 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

I'm glad you're young Fuzz but some of us are getting older and aren't really ready for a 6 to 7 year rebuild to relevance.  . 

Please tell me when a total tear down has worked??

Bucs still the Bucs right and they have went thru 3 or 4 regime changes..

Also, I would assume that I'm older than you unfortunately, and to the relevance thing....we are already irrelevant, this team has been an afterthought since Feb 2016.

[WOW!!]

Just now, thefuzz said:

Also, I would assume that I'm older than you unfortunately, and to the relevance thing....we are already irrelevant, this team has been an afterthought since Feb 2016.

Playoff team 2017 and this team had buzz last year.. 

Irrelevant is being in the division basement for 7 years like the bucs.. Or being a laughing stock like the Browns.  We've never been that.. Mediocrity yes but Irrelevant no...

[pantherclaw]

4 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

Bucs, Jets, Raiders.. 

But Hopefully not. 

Look at how low their culture got. Ours was never that bad. Now I suppose it could take long than I anticipate, but I have a feeling we'll be at least .500 this season. 

[WOW!!]

3 minutes ago, pantherclaw said:

Look at how low their culture got. Ours was never that bad. Now I suppose it could take long than I anticipate, but I have a feeling we'll be at least .500 this season. 

I hope you're right Claw.. I just don't like the fact we're creating more holes than ever I've seen before.. My faith in the coach and coaching staff is Meh.. (Due alot to no pro experience) and while I've defended Hurney his decision making is wearing me down.. And Tepper doesn't seem to know when to shut up or say the right things to engender faith...

[thefuzz]

13 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

Playoff team 2017 and this team had buzz last year.. 

Irrelevant is being in the division basement for 7 years like the bucs.. Or being a laughing stock like the Browns.  We've never been that.. Mediocrity yes but Irrelevant no...

I mean, if you like hearing the Panthers come through your car speakers in Colin Cowherds voice, or seeing our colors on Sports Center,  I guess that's cool and all, I just don't really care about any of that at all.

I want to win a Lombardi.

[mc52beast]

How long will the Panthers be King of Dead Cap... 

[Peon Awesome]

17 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

2010 had 6 to 7 pro bowl players on it still in their prime... Smitty, Gross, Kali, TD, Beason, CJ, Dwill and Stew.  Plus solid starters Wharton, Lafell and Piggy...

2001 - We kept a defense with Rucker, Buck, Jenkins, Morgan, Witherspoon and Minter intact.. The Oline was pretty much intact.. And You had Smitty, Moose, Hoover and Foster as weapons..

This doesn't look like the teams in those years.  

It's easier to assess those teams in hindsight. When we just finished 1-15 in 2001, I doubt anyone looked at that team and said we had a lot of good pieces. Even your list of players is flawed. Witherspoon and Foster were drafted in 2002 so weren't even on the team yet. Steve Smith, Jenkins and Morgan were all rookies in 2001 and at that point we didn't know quite how good they would end up being. Smith in particular barely played receiver as a rookie (10 total receptions) and mainly flashed on special teams. The fact that you have to reach for a player like Hoover, a fan favorite no doubt and will always have one of the all time great performances against Green Bay, but barely topped 400 scrimmage yards in a single year and had less than 1000 yards rushing for his entire 10 year career, should say something.

You could easily argue our current team has more potential than that team flashed at the end of that year. We have former MVP Cam Newton for goodness sake. You can at least pretend he could come back healthy. McCaffrey, is a top 3 offensive skill position player in the entire NFL. Brian Burns flashed all pro potential in limited snaps before getting hurt; we could be talking about him 10 years from now more glowingly than we reflect on anyone of those defensive players you listed from the 2001 team, most of whom were similarly young at the time and hadn't untapped their full potential. Shaq is getting better every year and could easily be as good as most of those players. Short is this generation's Jenkins and could be effective again once healthy. And we haven't even had our offseason or draft to build our core further. And we don't know what effect Rhule will have. All that to say, I would argue this team is just as well primed, if not moreso, to a quick rebuild. Whether it happens will depend on a lot of things, like good drafting, smart offseason pickups and a return to health for Cam. But it's no more unfathomable than it was after that 2001 year.

[stbugs]

25 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

2010 had 6 to 7 pro bowl players on it still in their prime... Smitty, Gross, Kali, TD, Beason, CJ, Dwill and Stew.  Plus solid starters Wharton, Lafell and Piggy...

2001 - We kept a defense with Rucker, Buck, Jenkins, Morgan, Witherspoon and Minter intact.. The Oline was pretty much intact.. And You had Smitty, Moose, Hoover and Foster as weapons..

This doesn't look like the teams in those years.  

Stacked teams don’t go 1-15 or 2-14. Steve Smith was a rookie with 10 receptions in 2001. Muhammad had 1 great year after 2000, the rest were WR2 numbers. Hoover as a weapon is laughable and Foster wasn’t even on the team until 2003. The OL was intact yet in 2001 we didn’t have Gross yet. We also didn’t have Peppers. The 2001 run D gave up more yards that our terrible 2019 run D.

I think you are remembering the rebuilt team a couple years later rather than the actual 2003 team since you are mentioning guys who were rookies with little impact or not even on the team yet.

All of a sudden LaFell’s a solid starter? He was a rookie in 2010, that’s like saying whatever WR we draft this year is already a solid starter. DeAngelo was amazing 2007-2009. 2010 and after he was mediocre the rest of his career outside of 2011. Stewart was basically the same, injuries and just decent from 2010 and after outside of 2011 and 2014. He averaged 3.4-4.3ypc outside of those two years. We romanticize some of these players but in 2010 they were as good as pre-2010 until we got Cam in 2011 and then they went back to average.

I don’t think you’re getting the rebuild when you are mentioning players drafted the first year of the rebuild or not even on the team yet. There were gigantic holes on the 2001 and 2010 teams just like there are this year. Based on your lists I could say we’ve got CMC, Cam, Moore, Moton, Burns and Derrick Brown and whoever we pick top 5 next year and have a great list too. Heck, just unlucky I can’t put Luke down. Benson played 2010, but then played 8 more games in 3 years. He had as much impact on the 2011-2015 rebuild as Luke will on this one.

[stbugs]

2 minutes ago, Peon Awesome said:

It's easier to assess those teams in hindsight. When we just finished 1-15 in 2001, I doubt anyone looked at that team and said we had a lot of good pieces. Even your list of players is flawed. Witherspoon and Foster were drafted in 2002 so weren't even on the team yet. Steve Smith, Jenkins and Morgan were all rookies in 2001 and at that point we didn't know quite how good they would end up being. Smith in particular barely played receiver as a rookie (10 total receptions) and mainly flashed on special teams. The fact that you have to reach for a player like Hoover, a fan favorite no doubt and will always have one of the all time great performances against Green Bay, but barely topped 400 scrimmage yards in a single year and had less than 1000 yards rushing for his entire 10 year career, should say something.

You could easily argue our current team has more potential than that team flashed at the end of that year. We have former MVP Cam Newton for goodness sake. You can at least pretend he could come back healthy. McCaffrey, is a top 3 offensive skill position player in the entire NFL. Brian Burns flashed all pro potential in limited snaps before getting hurt; we could be talking about him 10 years from now more glowingly than we reflect on anyone of those defensive players you listed from the 2001 team, most of whom were similarly young at the time and hadn't untapped their full potential. Shaq is getting better every year and could easily be as good as most of those players. Short is this generation's Jenkins and could be effective again once healthy. And we haven't even had our offseason or draft to build our core further. And we don't know what effect Rhule will have. All that to say, I would argue this team is just as well primed, if not moreso, to a quick rebuild. Whether it happens will depend on a lot of things, like good drafting, smart offseason pickups and a return to health for Cam. But it's no more unfathomable than it was after that 2001 year.

Beat me. Listing 6-7 guys, especially when some were rookies and not even on the team is an easy exercise and doesn’t show you the giant holes. Those were rebuild years and hopefully the 2020 crap year will also include a 2020 draft with someone like Smith in it.