Philip Rivers now a Free Agent

[Khyber53]

19 hours ago, MMA said:

Rivers was legit good. He was surrounded by some amazing talents on offense and even defense. Too bad, the same guys that ruined Cam and this franchise are the same ones that could never get Rivers to the SB: Norv Turner and Ron Rivera. 

And see, that's what they always say about him. And a list of other guys that were really, really good y'all, but just never made it. In the meantime, Eli Manning retires and people go out of their way to say "Yeah, he has the rings, but he wasn't any good."

It just doesn't wash or stand up to real world scrutiny.

[MMA]

1 hour ago, Khyber53 said:

And see, that's what they always say about him. And a list of other guys that were really, really good y'all, but just never made it. In the meantime, Eli Manning retires and people go out of their way to say "Yeah, he has the rings, but he wasn't any good."

It just doesn't wash or stand up to real world scrutiny.

Eli is on the same tier of QB as Rivers. They’re both good but not great. However, Eli had a great HC in Tom Coughlin. And his defense in both of the years he won Super Bowls were great. I mean, “great”. 

[Khyber53]

4 hours ago, MMA said:

Eli is on the same tier of QB as Rivers. They’re both good but not great. However, Eli had a great HC in Tom Coughlin. And his defense in both of the years he won Super Bowls were great. I mean, “great”. 

And yet, it was his skill as a passer that won both of those rings for the team. It's an easy knock on Eli, he's never done the self-promotion thing, but he has made stars out of receivers who didn't do much after leaving the team.  Rivers, though, is pretty much in line with Dan Fouts -- statistical marvel as a passer, but can't carry a team to win big or often.

 

 

[nogoodbum]

Always liked Rivers' game. Too bad he played in the AFC with NE getting almost all of the SB slots during his time in SD. Hope he ends up where carrying 5M or better clipboard on the sidelines.

[MMA]

31 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

And yet, it was his skill as a passer that won both of those rings for the team. It's an easy knock on Eli, he's never done the self-promotion thing, but he has made stars out of receivers who didn't do much after leaving the team.  Rivers, though, is pretty much in line with Dan Fouts -- statistical marvel as a passer, but can't carry a team to win big or often.

 

 

Two great incredible catches by Eli’s receivers to win the SBs. He didn’t make stars out of receivers. Eli has receivers in Nicks, Manningham, Cruz, Shockey, Steve Smith, Tyree, Boss and Burress.

[Khyber53]

14 hours ago, MMA said:

Two great incredible catches by Eli’s receivers to win the SBs. He didn’t make stars out of receivers. Eli has receivers in Nicks, Manningham, Cruz, Shockey, Steve Smith, Tyree, Boss and Burress.

You forgot Beckham, who has been less than a superstar without Eli. And yes, look at that list, away from the Giants they were pretty much all scrubs... Sometimes a star receiver gets made because someone can consistently get them the ball. And in the end, that's what you want out of a QB.

[thefuzz]

16 hours ago, Khyber53 said:

And yet, it was his skill as a passer that won both of those rings for the team. It's an easy knock on Eli, he's never done the self-promotion thing, but he has made stars out of receivers who didn't do much after leaving the team.  Rivers, though, is pretty much in line with Dan Fouts -- statistical marvel as a passer, but can't carry a team to win big or often.

 

 

Come on man, this simply isn't true.  Eli had a great throw to MM, and a miracle catch by Tyree, but his "skill as a passer" is not what won those playoff games.

That defense, both times, won those playoff games.

2007 Playoffs:  NFCC game, 23 points including overtime.  17 points in the SB.

2011 Playoffs:  NFCC game 20 points including overtime.  21 points in the SB.

I'm not taking anything away from Eli, but Rivers was, and is a better passer than Manning 2 ever was.  He did happen to go to a much better organization however....smartly.

 

[Khyber53]

1 hour ago, thefuzz said:

Come on man, this simply isn't true.  Eli had a great throw to MM, and a miracle catch by Tyree, but his "skill as a passer" is not what won those playoff games.

That defense, both times, won those playoff games.

2007 Playoffs:  NFCC game, 23 points including overtime.  17 points in the SB.

2011 Playoffs:  NFCC game 20 points including overtime.  21 points in the SB.

I'm not taking anything away from Eli, but Rivers was, and is a better passer than Manning 2 ever was.  He did happen to go to a much better organization however....smartly.

 

Okay, okay, the last thing I need to do with my life is spend time defending the Mannings, any of them. They're gonna be fine whether we like any of them or not. Still, Rivers just falls flat for me. Seems like a good guy and a nice guy, but just couldn't make the big leap. Matt Stafford is probably a very similar, modern comparison.

[thefuzz]

20 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Okay, okay, the last thing I need to do with my life is spend time defending the Mannings, any of them. They're gonna be fine whether we like any of them or not. Still, Rivers just falls flat for me. Seems like a good guy and a nice guy, but just couldn't make the big leap. Matt Stafford is probably a very similar, modern comparison.

I don't equate Super Bowls with how good a QB is or is not.  In a team sport, it's a dumb way to look at things.

Eli was a fine QB, Rivers was better, in every single statistical category, just saying that he was a MUCH better passer, and had Rivers been on the Giants vs. the dumpster fire out west, I bet he has a couple rings as well.

 

[Khyber53]

19 hours ago, thefuzz said:

I don't equate Super Bowls with how good a QB is or is not.  In a team sport, it's a dumb way to look at things.

Eli was a fine QB, Rivers was better, in every single statistical category, just saying that he was a MUCH better passer, and had Rivers been on the Giants vs. the dumpster fire out west, I bet he has a couple rings as well.

 

In the end, man, in the end, the really great QBs are those who won and those who have rings. Marino was statistically one of the greatest QBs ever, and Fran Tarkenton might have been the most gifted of them all (he held every QB record in the book at his retirement and was really the prototype for the mobile QB), but when they start talking about the top of the mountain, it's the rings that tip the balances.

Statistically, Marino is better than Montana, but if you are heading into a Super Bowl, which one do you want? Boomer Esiason in many ways was a better QB than Brett Favre, but with the big game on the line, which do you want in your huddle?

If I'm playing for the Lombardi, I'm going to pick Eli over Rivers based on results rather than stats. Maybe it's just luck, maybe it's leadership, maybe it's just a knack for being a clutch player. Whatever it is, Eli had the IT factor.

Bringing this back around to the Panthers, the lack of a ring might be a knock on Cam down the line, even though he was phenomenal on the field. Those of us who have watched all of his games will know the truth, but from the 5,000 feet up look that fans of other teams have he may not shine as brightly. And maybe that is how my opinion of Rivers was built, based on that 5,000 foot look, but his lack of playoff work and no championships makes me put him in the Hall of Pretty Darned Good, rather than the HoF. YMMV

[thefuzz]

2 hours ago, Khyber53 said:

In the end, man, in the end, the really great QBs are those who won and those who have rings. Marino was statistically one of the greatest QBs ever, and Fran Tarkenton might have been the most gifted of them all (he held every QB record in the book at his retirement and was really the prototype for the mobile QB), but when they start talking about the top of the mountain, it's the rings that tip the balances.

Statistically, Marino is better than Montana, but if you are heading into a Super Bowl, which one do you want? Boomer Esiason in many ways was a better QB than Brett Favre, but with the big game on the line, which do you want in your huddle?

If I'm playing for the Lombardi, I'm going to pick Eli over Rivers based on results rather than stats. Maybe it's just luck, maybe it's leadership, maybe it's just a knack for being a clutch player. Whatever it is, Eli had the IT factor.

Bringing this back around to the Panthers, the lack of a ring might be a knock on Cam down the line, even though he was phenomenal on the field. Those of us who have watched all of his games will know the truth, but from the 5,000 feet up look that fans of other teams have he may not shine as brightly. And maybe that is how my opinion of Rivers was built, based on that 5,000 foot look, but his lack of playoff work and no championships makes me put him in the Hall of Pretty Darned Good, rather than the HoF. YMMV

That word right there is why I don't care.

I'm guessing "they" is the national media, which I don't care about for even a single second.

I use my eyes.  Marino was better than Favre.  Kelly was better than Williams.  Moon was better than Aikman. Rivers is better than Eli.  Manning 1 was better than Brady (and yes I know Manning has 1.5 rings).

If you want to use SB wins to back up your QB analysis that's fine, it seems dumb as hell to me, but that's OK.  I think a couple of the greatest QBs of all time only have 1 each in Young, Rodgers, and Brees.

Eli was an average NFL passer, on one of the best franchises in the NFL.  Rivers was a very good NFL passer, on one of the worst franchises in the NFL.....and if you don't think what franchise you land in matters....ask Cam Newton in 15 years.

[Khyber53]

3 hours ago, thefuzz said:

That word right there is why I don't care.

I'm guessing "they" is the national media, which I don't care about for even a single second.

I use my eyes.  Marino was better than Favre.  Kelly was better than Williams.  Moon was better than Aikman. Rivers is better than Eli.  Manning 1 was better than Brady (and yes I know Manning has 1.5 rings).

If you want to use SB wins to back up your QB analysis that's fine, it seems dumb as hell to me, but that's OK.  I think a couple of the greatest QBs of all time only have 1 each in Young, Rodgers, and Brees.

Eli was an average NFL passer, on one of the best franchises in the NFL.  Rivers was a very good NFL passer, on one of the worst franchises in the NFL.....and if you don't think what franchise you land in matters....ask Cam Newton in 15 years.

Sure thing man, take the win here. I'm not dying on that hill you are fighting so hard for. It's your turf. Like I said, someone was going to slam me for saying it, but it's still my take.