Why the Panthers might Draft Herbert

[TheRed]

Growl do you actually want Herbert at 7th overall?

[kungfoodude]

3 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

Greg Little's play in 2019 is not the issue--how much improvement can you get from him now?

Imagine we drafted Thomas last season.  He missed most of preseason, had 2 concussions.  Playing beside GVR or Williams--vs. Defenses that were not too worried about the run--blitzing, etc. What might he look like--A: Greg Little in 2019. 

If anyone thinks there is disagreement about Little based on 2019, there is not. 

 

Yeah, I'd like to think he can be a valuable contributor but nothing I saw in 2019 makes me think we can risk having him as a blindside protector for Cam or a rookie QB. 

I would hesitate to comparing him to Thomas yet. I think Thomas is a much better prospect than Little was. Does it mean he is a surefire franchise LT? No. But it is one of our biggest needs(as it has been for years now). I don't care how we fix the LT issue, whether drafting a guy like Thomas at #7 or signing a veteran LT or whatever. We just have to get better at that position and I don't think that wishing and hoping Daley and Little are going to magically make a big leap is the answer. 

[MHS831]

9 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

How about "big Cam Newton" and "tiny Taylor Heinicke" also getting injured behind that OL?

And the rest of your word salad really is just complete nonsense unless you actually believe that our terrible OL was not a problem. One of many, to be sure, but one of our bigger problems.

KY gave us Mitch McConnell , the Hatfields and McCoys, and the bricks that cause blacklung. 

[Snake]

3 hours ago, MHS831 said:

It has been mentioned frequently--I think we need a good free agency to fill some needs because there are literally thousands of possible approaches.  My response would be this:  Little and Daley were developing as rookie LTs.  At DT, we have nobody. 

Navy--I hear ya.  However, OTs take time to develop.  We had 2 rookies--one that missed the preseason with 2 concussions and never got on track, the other a fifth rounder that was decent at times.  The most growth occurs between the rookie and 2nd year---does that mean we should all feel good about LT?  No.  but we have bigger needs at DT, possibly QB and CB.  So may variables.

At DT we have Poe and Short. If we stay with the 3-4 we are in even better shape. If anyone watched Little and Daley one was too injured the other not good enough. They may progress but only to be back ups. 

[MHS831]

Let me slow this down for the people that just woke up and are about to put on their jumpers for their third shift jobs:

This is not about who you want to pick--it is about the reasons the Panthers might....Not about hating Cam or taking a CB or DT or OT in the first round.

[MHS831]

Just now, Snake said:

At DT we have Poe and Short. If we stay with the 3-4 we are in even better shape. If anyone watched Little and Daley one was too injured the other not good enough. They may progress but only to be back ups. 

Good point--i am operating on the assumption they will cut Poe---not sure why.

[mrcompletely11]

1 minute ago, Snake said:

At DT we have Poe and Short. If we stay with the 3-4 we are in even better shape. If anyone watched Little and Daley one was too injured the other not good enough. They may progress but only to be back ups. 

Poe is getting cut

[Madwolf]

1 minute ago, Growl said:

alright chums since you've adopted the burden of proof here, why don't you quickly round up how many FRANCHISE LEFT TACKLES have led their team to Super Bowl Glory

 

I'll do quarterback then we'll compare notes

If not I'll just save you the hassle:

 

The offensive line as a group isn't what it once was

 

Oh goody, here we go:

2020: Eric Fisher - #1 Pick in the draft 2013 to KC (KC)

2019: Trent Brown - 7th round pick in 2015 to SF (NE)

2018: Halapoulivaati Vaitai - 5th round pick in 2016 to Phi (Phi)

2017: Nate Solder - Pick #17 in the 2013 draft to NE (NE)

2016: Ryan Harris - 3rd Round pick 2007 draft to DEN (DEN)

2015: Nate Solder - Pick #17 in the 2013 draft to NE (NE)

2014: Russel Okung - Pick #6 in the 2010 draft to SEA (SEA)

2013: Bryant McKinnie - Pick #7 in the 2002 draft to MIN (BAL)

2012: David Diehl - 5th round pick 2003 draft to NYG (NYG)

2011: Jonathan Scott - 5th round pick 2006 draft to DET (PIT)

So in 10 years, half the Super Bowl winners started a 1st round LT.

 

 

 

[Growl]

6 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

How about "big Cam Newton" and "tiny Taylor Heinicke" also getting injured behind that OL?

And the rest of your word salad really is just complete nonsense unless you actually believe that our terrible OL was not a problem. One of many, to be sure, but one of our bigger problems.

cam Newton getting hurt appears to be a reality of cam Newton at this point

One of? So you acknowledge there are other bigger problems?

Okay, great.

You're almost there. Now ask yourself, which of these "bigger problems" are far more essential to the long term success of the team. Ask yourself which "bigger problem" in a normal off-season usually can't just be fixed. Take a look at how long teams like the dolphins and browns have spent waiting to get lucky and find Perfect Quarterback Prospect right there for the taking. And its so weird, too, because they've drafted offensive lineman like Laremy tunsil and Joe LOL Thomas and yet we're never any good because they lacked a quality player at one position

See, the irony of it is that FORTIFYING THE TRENCHES is almost a curse, because it makes you good enough to never get a player you actually need but never good enough to actually be a good football team.

You don't build a team that way. It doesn't work, and right now, with the next era of NFC South football up for the taking, the Panthers have to aggressively making the Big, Correct moves, because mickey Loomis will, because if we don't, we will all gleefully sit here circle jerking each other over how we did it "THE RIGHT WAY" with our hog mollies as we coast to 7-9 and Sean Payton turns Jordan love or whatever into Patrick mahomes.

 

[MHS831]

2 minutes ago, Madwolf said:

Oh goody, here we go:

2020: Eric Fisher - #1 Pick in the draft 2013 to KC (KC)

2019: Trent Brown - 7th round pick in 2015 to SF (NE)

2018: Halapoulivaati Vaitai - 5th round pick in 2016 to Phi (Phi)

2017: Nate Solder - Pick #17 in the 2013 draft to NE (NE)

2016: Ryan Harris - 3rd Round pick 2007 draft to DEN (DEN)

2015: Nate Solder - Pick #17 in the 2013 draft to NE (NE)

2014: Russel Okung - Pick #6 in the 2010 draft to SEA (SEA)

2013: Bryant McKinnie - Pick #7 in the 2002 draft to MIN (BAL)

2012: David Diehl - 5th round pick 2003 draft to NYG (NYG)

2011: Jonathan Scott - 5th round pick 2006 draft to DET (PIT)

So in 10 years, half the Super Bowl winners started a 1st round LT.

 

 

 

Excellent--an argument with facts--rare.  (Solder mentioned twice)

[Growl]

8 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Growl do you actually want Herbert at 7th overall?

I would very aggressively chase the top 2 targets, and if it simply cannot happen, yeah, I'd probably take Herbert.

 Burrow and Tua are rare QB prospects that don't come around a lot. Getting the guy who would normally go #1 overall in a normal draft devoid of those two rare talents is quite the "consolation" prize.

[Growl]

7 minutes ago, Madwolf said:

Oh goody, here we go:

2020: Eric Fisher - #1 Pick in the draft 2013 to KC (KC)

2019: Trent Brown - 7th round pick in 2015 to SF (NE)

2018: Halapoulivaati Vaitai - 5th round pick in 2016 to Phi (Phi)

2017: Nate Solder - Pick #17 in the 2013 draft to NE (NE)

2016: Ryan Harris - 3rd Round pick 2007 draft to DEN (DEN)

2015: Nate Solder - Pick #17 in the 2013 draft to NE (NE)

2014: Russel Okung - Pick #6 in the 2010 draft to SEA (SEA)

2013: Bryant McKinnie - Pick #7 in the 2002 draft to MIN (BAL)

2012: David Diehl - 5th round pick 2003 draft to NYG (NYG)

2011: Jonathan Scott - 5th round pick 2006 draft to DET (PIT)

So in 10 years, half the Super Bowl winners started a 1st round LT.

 

 

 

Lol half of these players are mid round picks (or later) and the other half were terrible players who didn't go with the team who blew a draft pick on them

Now I want one even less. Aside from Brady exceptionalism you definitely can't do the same thing with the QB spot.

[kungfoodude]

17 minutes ago, Growl said:

cam Newton getting hurt appears to be a reality of cam Newton at this point

One of? So you acknowledge there are other bigger problems?

Okay, great.

You're almost there. Now ask yourself, which of these "bigger problems" are far more essential to the long term success of the team. Ask yourself which "bigger problem" in a normal off-season usually can't just be fixed. Take a look at how long teams like the dolphins and browns have spent waiting to get lucky and find Perfect Quarterback Prospect right there for the taking. And its so weird, too, because they've drafted offensive lineman like Laremy tunsil and Joe LOL Thomas and yet we're never any good because they lacked a quality player at one position

See, the irony of it is that FORTIFYING THE TRENCHES is almost a curse, because it makes you good enough to never get a player you actually need but never good enough to actually be a good football team.

You don't build a team that way. It doesn't work, and right now, with the next era of NFC South football up for the taking, the Panthers have to aggressively making the Big, Correct moves, because mickey Loomis will, because if we don't, we will all gleefully sit here circle jerking each other over how we did it "THE RIGHT WAY" with our hog mollies as we coast to 7-9 and Sean Payton turns Jordan love or whatever into Patrick mahomes.

 

The Panthers may have varying "big problems" depending on what we do in free agency. The roster may have many holes or few, that is to be determined. The hole at LT has existed for years now, that really hasn't changed much since we had an average-ish LT in Michael Oher.

As to the rest of your post, where do you see any sort of inference from me that QB is not the most important position in football(not just the NFL but college, for that matter)? Do we have a hole a QB? TBD, same with most of our other offseason problems. If Cam returns, not much of an issue(outside of needing to improve the backup QB). If Cam does not return, six alarm fire bad sort of issue. That is a wholly different discussion but one that also warrants looking at the actual QB prospects. You don't just draft "a QB" when they aren't a guy you believe is a franchise caliber QB. Not to mention....have you SEEN the QB's that a lot of those top 10 franchises have drafted recently? It's a fuging crapshoot and bad franchises miss a LOT more on QB's than they hit. Take a look at the last 20-25 years of QB's that got drafted in the first round. It's rough. Why do you think we have literally only had one in our entire franchise's existence?

You build a good team by getting good players, not drafting out of panicked need. If that means taking a LT, DT, LB, etc, etc, etc, over a QB, then that is what you do. It doesn't mean you ignore the QB position(after all there are later rounds and free agency that also exist) but you cannot squander a sure thing on a questionable prospect. This draft appears to be pretty weak in the QB category, so I would not want to see the Panthers reach on a guy at #7(like Herbert or Tua) when we have so many other potential and current needs on the roster. 

Herbert is my favorite QB of the bunch(with Tua having such a bad injury history) but I would not want to take him at #7, even if Cam didn't return. I also wouldn't want to trade the farm for Burrow because I think he has a limited ceiling in the NFL. 

[kungfoodude]

20 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

Good point--i am operating on the assumption they will cut Poe---not sure why.

I wouldn't make any assumptions on what moves we are going to make. New coaching staff, new direction, etc. There are too many variables to assume much about our offseason until moves start being made in earnest. Even the rumor mill is pretty silent on what we plan to do with our current unrestricted free agents.