Re-Built in the image of Cam Newton

[1of10Charnatives]

3 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

Yeah, we are basically in agreement--the risk of the 2021 contract is the issue--what does 2020 tell us about Cam.  There are some running QBs who can still be effective passers in their mid 30s--here is my take on that:

Cam has never had a great OL--specifically OTs.  He had Gross for a while, but Remmers?  M Kalil?  etc.  Cam is good when he drops, plants, and throws.  When he does not (and the reason for that could be a bad read or no separation, etc) he loses his feet (technique) and tends to throw high.  He is a great athlete, so running has always been his escape hatch--it is hard to rewire that mindset.   If the intent is to keep Cam, then give him a stud OL now to protect him and one more WR.   I am getting ready to start a thread on the WRs in this draft--it is sick how deep it is.

When Cam is a run threat, he is more effective because he sees fewer blitzes.  If he loses that, then what makes him special?  That is why I suggest the OL and a WR.  He needs to drop, plant, and throw.  Watch some video--he is deadly in that situation.  When he gets moved off the mark he struggles.  So with an OL and some dangerous WRs---he could become that QB.  My biggest concern is how quickly he reads defenses--still is.  He has always relied on his cannon to make up for mental hesitation (obviously this is my opinion because nobody knows what he sees or thinks).  A solid 2020 and a smart contract--no issues.  However, I have doubts about his health.  I hurt after playing college football---I can't imagine what these guys go through.

Yeah the health is the one that really gets me too because even if he looks good this coming season there are no guarantees he can hold up long term. I’ve been thinking about that a lot and to me that risk vs reward stacks up better than ditching him primarily because of the long odds and draft capital cost of replacing him. Plus in all fairness I just love the guy and want him to be our qb.

Regarding the not running/facing more blitzes thing: one thing I found mildly surprising when looking at running qb’s post 30 years is that even as they ran less, their passing effectiveness did not at a glance seem to suffer. I didn’t do any real in depth evaluation of the stats, but I have a hypothesis: as they gain experience running qb’s like non running qb’s just become more adept at reading defenses and making them pay for blitzing.

Cam’s hesitation is definitely a concern here, so what I’m hoping Brady and the new coaching staff will help him do is make decisions faster, because he’s definitely gotten better at it over time, he just still hesitates a lot.

[WarHeel]

11 hours ago, CatTower said:

There's going to be a lot of new accounts on this forum when Cam is traded/released.

A lot of inactive accounts when they jump ship and follow him to his new team. 

[1of10Charnatives]

3 minutes ago, WarHeel said:

A lot of inactive accounts when they jump ship and follow him to his new team. 

*shrugs*

Nothing wrong with that. If you are a fan of a particular player more than a team, great. Personally I love Cam and if he leaves I will pull for whatever team he winds up on as long as it’s not the Pats or a division rival, but I’m a Panthers fan first, so posting wise I will stay here.

[MHS831]

11 hours ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

I've never watched a fan base turn on their franchise quarterback as quickly as this one has I will say that.

I understand why you think this, but this is not about loyalty to a player.  Some (as I try to do) put on the GM hat and try to analyze the situation from that perspective.  Others root for players, and seem to be loyal to them.  Cam has been the ambassador for this team--the face of a franchise---a trendsetting QB who threw it out there every week--until he couldn't. 

The past 2 years have been lost because Cam was injured.  Did you think his style of play would have no consequences?  The options, the refusing to slide, the shots to the upper body and head--how long did you think he would be around?  To me, it was a "live for today" style.  I cannot find the threads, but I said on multiple occasions that he would not last a decade--and I don't know if that is right or not.  It does mean that I am a realist, and I would be surprised if we ever saw 2015 Cam again.  So instead of fighting for loyalty to Cam, I think, "What's next?"  What will this team do to replace Cam?  If you are not considering that, you are biased and loyal, but not wearing your GM hat. 

[stirs]

2 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

I understand why you think this, but this is not about loyalty to a player.  Some (as I try to do) put on the GM hat and try to analyze the situation from that perspective.  Others root for players, and seem to be loyal to them.  Cam has been the ambassador for this team--the face of a franchise---a trendsetting QB who threw it out there every week--until he couldn't. 

The past 2 years have been lost because Cam was injured.  Did you think his style of play would have no consequences?  The options, the refusing to slide, the shots to the upper body and head--how long did you think he would be around?  To me, it was a "live for today" style.  I cannot find the threads, but I said on multiple occasions that he would not last a decade--and I don't know if that is right or not.  It does mean that I am a realist, and I would be surprised if we ever saw 2015 Cam again.  So instead of fighting for loyalty to Cam, I think, "What's next?"  What will this team do to replace Cam?  If you are not considering that, you are biased and loyal, but not wearing your GM hat. 

It's the internet, much easier to react than think.

I used to have favorites and still do, but keep them in perspective.  NFL is a short term gig for most and you are correct, the ones that play with reckless abandon are very fun to watch, but their shelf life is generally shorter

[Mr Mojo Risin]

16 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

I understand why you think this, but this is not about loyalty to a player.  Some (as I try to do) put on the GM hat and try to analyze the situation from that perspective.  Others root for players, and seem to be loyal to them.  Cam has been the ambassador for this team--the face of a franchise---a trendsetting QB who threw it out there every week--until he couldn't. 

The past 2 years have been lost because Cam was injured.  Did you think his style of play would have no consequences?  The options, the refusing to slide, the shots to the upper body and head--how long did you think he would be around?  To me, it was a "live for today" style.  I cannot find the threads, but I said on multiple occasions that he would not last a decade--and I don't know if that is right or not.  It does mean that I am a realist, and I would be surprised if we ever saw 2015 Cam again.  So instead of fighting for loyalty to Cam, I think, "What's next?"  What will this team do to replace Cam?  If you are not considering that, you are biased and loyal, but not wearing your GM hat. 

I get it, Cam has been banged up and that is cause for concern considering his playstyle. But even QBs like Drew Brees (missed 5 games last year) Aaron Rodgers was hurt 2 seasons ago and missed like 10 or 11 games. Tom Brady tore his acl. Peyton Manning had neck surgery. Unfortunately injuries happen to the most durable of players, its football. And if you notice most teams didn't give up on their franchise signal caller just because they had an injury. Sure the Colts got rid of Manning but do you think they make the same decision if they could go back in time? Knowing what they know now? Peyton set a record for Tds in a season AND won a SB with the Broncos. How's Peytons successor doing in Indy? Qb is unlike any other position on an NFL roster I know I dont need to tell you that but still. It's very hard to just start over at that position . Incredibly hard actually.

And what do we really have to lose by allowing Cam to play out his contract? If he fails we will get a high draft pick. We use this year to fix the trenches which is what we need to do anyways. AND we have a chance to have one of the best offenses in the NFL if Cam can prove he can still be the guy. The chip on his shoulder is.going to be ENORMOUS. And we aren't going to draft Cams successor this year so why not? We have NOTHING to lose by allowing him to play and see if this arrangement can work. Because if it can work this team could very well have SB aspirations 2-3 seasons from now. 

[stirs]

8 minutes ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

I get it, Cam has been banged up and that is cause for concern considering his playstyle. But even QBs like Drew Brees (missed 5 games last year) Aaron Rodgers was hurt 2 seasons ago and missed like 10 or 11 games. Tom Brady tore his acl. Peyton Manning had neck surgery. Unfortunately injuries happen to the most durable of players, its football. And if you notice most teams didn't give up on their franchise signal caller just because they had an injury. Sure the Colts got rid of Manning but do you think they make the same decision if they could go back in time? Knowing what they know now? Peyton set a record for Tds in a season AND won a SB with the Broncos. How's Peytons successor doing in Indy? Qb is unlike any other position on an NFL roster I know I dont need to tell you that but still. It's very hard to just start over at that position . Incredibly hard actually.

And what do we really have to lose by allowing Cam to play out his contract? If he fails we will get a high draft pick. We use this year to fix the trenches which is what we need to do anyways. AND we have a chance to have one of the best offenses in the NFL if Cam can prove he can still be the guy. We aren't going to draft Cams successor this year so why not? We have NOTHING to lose by allowing him to play and see if this arrangement can work. Because if it can work this team could very well be in the SB 2-3 seasons from now

I understand most peoples thinking.  For most your last paragraph sums up the consensus view.

The only difference for me is that I think he will never be the same and keeping him this one last season won't hurt, but it wont help.  20 million less for the rebuild and maybe a draft pick or two could be had.  My opinion is that we are just putting off the inevitable.  I could totally be wrong.

[WarHeel]

26 minutes ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

*shrugs*

Nothing wrong with that. If you are a fan of a particular player more than a team, great. Personally I love Cam and if he leaves I will pull for whatever team he winds up on as long as it’s not the Pats or a division rival, but I’m a Panthers fan first, so posting wise I will stay here.

To each his own. I’m certainly not a Cam hater but I do recognize the reality that he may not be a Panther for long and certainly not forever. Either way I’m a Panther fan first and foremost. Great players come and go but my allegiance to the team will always outweigh any attachment to individual players. Can’t say the same for many on here and that’s their prerogative. 

[mrcompletely11]

16 minutes ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

 

And what do we really have to lose by allowing Cam to play out his contract? If he fails we will get a high draft pick. We use this year to fix the trenches which is what we need to do anyways. AND we have a chance to have one of the best offenses in the NFL if Cam can prove he can still be the guy. The chip on his shoulder is.going to be ENORMOUS. And we aren't going to draft Cams successor this year so why not? We have NOTHING to lose by allowing him to play and see if this arrangement can work. Because if it can work this team could very well have SB aspirations 2-3 seasons from now. 

Thats the rub.  Letting him play one year is essentially a wasted year in the process if thats all he plays.  If he plays and wins a handful of games now he is going to want a new contract and we have played ourselves out of contention for one of the top qbs.  

 

And you dont know if we draft a qb this year or not.  I doubt the staff knows and thats what makes this process crappy for both parties.  Its tough to make a plan going further not knowing what you have in Cam.  Thats why I still think they move on from him.  Just easier for the franchise to move forward.  It would suck but I would understand it

[Mr Mojo Risin]

16 minutes ago, stirs said:

I understand most peoples thinking.  For most your last paragraph sums up the consensus view.

The only difference for me is that I think he will never be the same and keeping him this one last season won't hurt, but it wont help.  20 million less for the rebuild and maybe a draft pick or two could be had.  My opinion is that we are just putting off the inevitable.  I could totally be wrong.

Hard telling what's going to happen man. All I know is that Cam loves this game. He loves this city. Hes going to work his tail off to bring this team a championship if given the opportunity. Having a guy like that at the Qb position is invaluable. If hes willing to play on a 1 year deal who's risking more? The team or Cam? There really isnt anything we'd do with the 19 million in cap we'd free up without a Qb. It'll be interesting to see what happens either way. I'm excited for the future

 

[mrcompletely11]

2 minutes ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

Hard telling what's going to happen man. All I know is that Cam loves this game. He loves this city. Hes going to work his tail off to bring this team a championship if given the opportunity. Having a guy like that at the Qb position is invaluable. If hes willing to play on a 1 year deal who's risking more? The team or Cam? There really isnt anything we'd do with the 19 million in cap we'd free up without a Qb. It'll be interesting to see what happens either way. I'm excited for the future either way

 

But like I said, you lose a year in the "process" and you are not really gaining anything.  Say he plays and wins at best 8 games.  Then what do you pay him?  Market rate for a franchise qb is over 30.  You think that is in the best interest of the franchise?

[Tepper's Chest Hair]

4 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

But like I said, you lose a year in the "process" and you are not really gaining anything.  Say he plays and wins at best 8 games.  Then what do you pay him?  Market rate for a franchise qb is over 30.  You think that is in the best interest of the franchise?

Do I think its best interest in the franchise to have a good qb?

Yes.  

[Mr Mojo Risin]

7 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

But like I said, you lose a year in the "process" and you are not really gaining anything.  Say he plays and wins at best 8 games.  Then what do you pay him?  Market rate for a franchise qb is over 30.  You think that is in the best interest of the franchise?

Who says Cam would want 30 million to stay? What if hes willing to take a team friendly deal? It's never been about money for Cam. He makes plenty through endorsements and other ventures. If we get about 8 wins and our offense is looking pretty good then yes you pay him. If he struggles and is inconsistent then you let him go (I seriously doubt we win many games if Cam isnt balling out) we lose nothing. It seems like you want us to go full on tank before the draft has even happened. I can tell you that is 100% the wrong mentality. I know it looks enticing at the thought of having the #1 pick next year but I promise you that is more of a gamble than seeing what Cam can do on a 1 year prove it deal.

[mrcompletely11]

1 minute ago, Tepper's Chest Hair said:

Do I think its best interest in the franchise to have a good qb?

Yes.  

So would you then sign him to a 5 year $175 million contract because thats probably the minimum he would sign for.