HeyVern! (The Butler Dilemma)

[MHS831]

1 hour ago, Ivan The Awesome said:

Butler had so many years to prove his worth and not until now he shows something. I'm ready to move on. Draft his replacement in the 2nd or 3rd round, You'll see more production from a guy like that than this bust. 

I don't have an opinion, but am trying to represent both sides- allow me to counter with some points and get your reaction to them:

1. Butler was drafted too high because he was a project from La Tech. 

2. He played behind RR's veterans (Star, Poe, KK, Love) and was not given many opportunities to play.

3. Is it possible that he was trapped behind RR's love for veterans and was not given the opportunities to play enough to get experience he needed until this year?

4.  How many people who are wanting Butler gone also wanted Josh Norman to be given a big contract?  He too came from a lesser school and did not do much his first three years.  

In other words, what makes you certain that Butler is not improving, not a victim of being buried behind Ron's veterans, etc.?  While he was blown off the ball at times this season, so were Gerald McCoy and Dontari Poe.  Do we have a roster full of first round DTs that suck?

[ImaginaryKev]

He's totally replaceable, don't kid yourselves guys

[Ivan The Awesome]

3 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

I don't have an opinion, but am trying to represent both sides- allow me to counter with some points and get your reaction to them:

1. Butler was drafted too high because he was a project from La Tech.

He was in several draft boards as an elite prospect, don't pull the "was drafted too high" card now in hindsight. The potential for him to be the replacement for Star/KK was there.  

2. He played behind RR's veterans (Star, Poe, KK, Love) and was not given many opportunities to play.

Star and KK I understand, Love, a guy literally signed off the street out performing you and Poe who was largely thought of as a push over and bust by Falcons and Chiefs fans beating you out as well...Okay bud. This year KK was injured, got the play time and starts showing some flashes when he's about to see the door seems like his priorities are fixed. Even with the injuries, guys that aren't suited for his position are playing instead of him, now the stupid penalties and bone head plays. I don't see a reason to keep the guy. He's not going to be missed and can be replaced. The veterans talk can either be chalked to Rivera OR Hurney since we learned that Rivera wanted to control the game time roster but apparently didn't have much choice. What I see from this revelation is that maybe he was considered but didn't cut it each and every week even with the injuries that happened this year. 

3. Is it possible that he was trapped behind RR's love for veterans and was not given the opportunities to play enough to get experience he needed until this year? 

The "Rivera's veterans" theory is a bit of an outlier since we've seen several young guys come in and get starting jobs. Have you actually thought that maybe, just maybe, Rivera did see what he can do and just didn't see the benefit in playing him when he had better options? As I recall Butler was taken for the purpose of taking over for KK since there was a bit of uncertainty about him signing again. 

4.  How many people who are wanting Butler gone also wanted Josh Norman to be given a big contract?  He too came from a lesser school and did not do much his first three years.  

Unlike Butler, Josh Norman actually did things in preseason to get that go ahead start. I am not one of those people you speak of about wanting to give Norman a huge contract. I actually was glad he was gone since I was one of the few that knew he'd have a huge decline and the system was what made him. He's not irrelevant unfortunately. 

In other words, what makes you certain that Butler is not improving, not a victim of being buried behind Ron's veterans, etc.?  While he was blown off the ball at times this season, so were Gerald McCoy and Dontari Poe.  Do we have a roster full of first round DTs that suck?

I'm certain because he couldn't beat out Poe or Love, even Odaba for that matter. McCoy played injured several games and he still got more playing time. There are younger guys that can replace him in free agency or the draft. The thing that needs to happen is the people that get pushed over by a god damn TE and overreact need to get gone. The lines need men and not reactionary pansies that get pancaked easily. He never established his dominance on the field and at this point, it will all depend on who comes in and dictates what type of Defense will be installed. 3-4 or 4-3. The hybrid experiment is long gone with Rivera. That doesn't make his chances of staying any better. Especially with this tape. 

Tried to answer your questions. 

[Butterflyj30]

I say we keep him Gerald and Love

[Mr. Scot]

 

[Toomers]

9 hours ago, MHS831 said:

Yes--you had your logic reversed with an equally ridiculous assumption and you are attacking it.  How marvelous.

   What assumption? That you are making up the  rules as you go. Or scenario? It’s just that your example is the same as his. But only yours matters. 
 

    And again, why should any player cut before effect the decision on Butler? You can make up 100 more scenarios to hope Butler is getting better. When the truth is he still gets driven off the ball like he’s on wheels. 

[Harbingers]

10 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

 

Honestly I’d like to see him active and playing. To see how he handles himself after last weeks unfortunate outburst. He is in a contract year after all. 

[Khyber53]

On 12/28/2019 at 7:54 AM, MHS831 said:

(This is for the sake of discussion--these views do not really reflect my opinion, but I am trying to see both sides--when I checked out his stats, I was surprised).

Butler has been in on 31 tackles (good  for a DT) and has 6 sacks this season.  For comparison's sake, Gerald McCoy has been in on 19 tackles and has 5 sacks.  Kyle Love has been in on 7 tackles and has zero sacks. (He prolly done).  In fact, the other DT many Huddlers want to see gone in 2020 is Dontari Poe, who (in 11 games) had 22 tackles and 4 sacks--on pace to have his second best season as a pro.

Comparing Butler to the most productive players on the defensive front this year (playing different positions):

Mario Addison: 32 tackles, 9.5 sacks

Bruce Irvin: 35 tackles, 8.5 sacks

Vernon Butler 31 tackles, 6 sacks

Apples and oranges, but the disadvantage goes to the DT here--the fact that his numbers are nearly equal to the team's top edge rushers is noteworthy.

So what do you do with Vern?  Let him sign somewhere and hope for the 3rd round comp pick?  Bring him back?  You may not have liked the punch and the flippage, but you have to admit he was playing with some fire when everyone else seemed checked out.

 

I don't like Vern. He sucked up paychecks for years with little return, has a violent streak off the field and had a terrible moment in the last game that got him ejected, us penalized and ended up with him flipping off the fans. You do make a compelling case for keeping him, though. 

Can he clean up the rest of his act AND keep this new intensity? I don't know, I don't know. I do know how many times we end up with disappointments when someone fires it up for a contract year but has nothing to show for earlier years. I just think of Greg Hardy sitting on his couch, getting the big checks after smacking up his girlfriend. 

Statistically, I can see the argument. Wisdom says there are more rocks ahead in the road than there were behind us. Might be best to let him go on alone and get that third rounder to rebuild with.

[MHS831]

1 minute ago, Khyber53 said:

I don't like Vern. He sucked up paychecks for years with little return, has a violent streak off the field and had a terrible moment in the last game that got him ejected, us penalized and ended up with him flipping off the fans. You do make a compelling case for keeping him, though. 

Can he clean up the rest of his act AND keep this new intensity? I don't know, I don't know. I do know how many times we end up with disappointments when someone fires it up for a contract year but has nothing to show for earlier years. I just think of Greg Hardy sitting on his couch, getting the big checks after smacking up his girlfriend. 

Statistically, I can see the argument. Wisdom says there are more rocks ahead in the road than there were behind us. Might be best to let him go on alone and get that third rounder to rebuild with.

Great points.  I agree.

[onmyown]

On 12/28/2019 at 5:54 AM, MHS831 said:

(This is for the sake of discussion--these views do not really reflect my opinion, but I am trying to see both sides--when I checked out his stats, I was surprised).

Butler has been in on 31 tackles (good  for a DT) and has 6 sacks this season.  For comparison's sake, Gerald McCoy has been in on 19 tackles and has 5 sacks.  Kyle Love has been in on 7 tackles and has zero sacks. (He prolly done).  In fact, the other DT many Huddlers want to see gone in 2020 is Dontari Poe, who (in 11 games) had 22 tackles and 4 sacks--on pace to have his second best season as a pro.

Comparing Butler to the most productive players on the defensive front this year (playing different positions):

Mario Addison: 32 tackles, 9.5 sacks

Bruce Irvin: 35 tackles, 8.5 sacks

Vernon Butler 31 tackles, 6 sacks

Apples and oranges, but the disadvantage goes to the DT here--the fact that his numbers are nearly equal to the team's top edge rushers is noteworthy.

So what do you do with Vern?  Let him sign somewhere and hope for the 3rd round comp pick?  Bring him back?  You may not have liked the punch and the flippage, but you have to admit he was playing with some fire when everyone else seemed checked out.

 

I’m weary of players who all of a sudden ‘get it’ in their contract years.

I wouldn’t pay him what another team would.

[MHS831]

Just now, onmyown said:

I’m weary of players who all of a sudden ‘get it’ in their contract years.

I wouldn’t pay him what another team would.

The reason I posted this was simply that I was shocked by the stats when I looked them up.  I am not even sure he played that well this season, but some players develop later than others--especially lineman from smaller programs.  We are probably going to need a DT if he stays, 2 if he leaves.  I would not pay him either.