HeyVern! (The Butler Dilemma)

[Toomers]

   No team is going to sign him without watching actual game footage. And that’s when those sacks won’t matter. Sacks are random. Gap responsibilities are every play. His lawyer can’t erase 95% of his snaps. How does he explain his first 3 seasons? That he wasn’t playing hard? 

[MHS831]

Just now, Harbingers said:

Are they solo or combined?

These were combined.  22 solos--not shabby.

[top dawg]

Patience is a virtue. Sometimes it takes a while for players to develop. Honestly, when given a chance, he's made some plays, and his improvement is kind of palpable. He is definitely rotation material.

Even though we didn't need him.when we drafted him, we might as well keep him if the price is right.

 

I don't know WTF was wrong with him on that play.

[Toomers]

Just now, Harbingers said:

Are they solo or combined?

I was impressed last week when he and McCoy push the RB out of bounds, 9 yards downfield. That’s where I want my DTs making plays. Or more accurately “being driven off the ball to that point”

   

[Ja Rhule]

So he half assed for 3 seasons but shows up in contract year?  I have seen this happen too many times in the NFL.

[Harbingers]

3 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

These were combined.  22 solos--not shabby.

Ya, I just posted his full stat line in my post. 

[MHS831]

13 minutes ago, Harbingers said:

Are they solo or combined?

Ok looked it up. 31 combined, 22 solo, 9 assist, 7 TFL, 8 QB hit. 3 forced fumbles, 6 sacks.

I assume they all came from up the gut runs where he was single blocked and was able to tackle the RB since 7 were TFL. 

Statistically, that is a solid season for a NT/DE (whatever he was).  Stats don't always paint the most accurate pic, but I can see him getting overpaid in 2020 based on these numbers.

[KendrickPanther]

His lack of discipline in run defense was a major problem for the Panthers this year. Stats aren't everything.

[MHS831]

Just now, KendrickPanther said:

His lack of discipline in run defense was a major problem for the Panthers this year. Stats aren't everything.

That point was already made--he was blown off the ball by using improper technique.  All the stats tell us is he experienced some degree of success on 31 snaps.

[MHS831]

17 minutes ago, Toomers said:

I was impressed last week when he and McCoy push the RB out of bounds, 9 yards downfield. That’s where I want my DTs making plays. Or more accurately “being driven off the ball to that point”

   

McCoy, Poe, and Butler were not good in run support--were they seeking sacks instead of gap discipline?  Your point--McCoy gets a tackle for that.

[Toomers]

Just now, MHS831 said:

McCoy, Poe, and Butler were not good--your point?  McCoy gets a tackle for that.

  My point was one of them, or both, were given “credit” for a tackle, which is being used as a selling point here, even though they couldn’t have done their jobs any worse. 
 

  Show me their how often they occupy two blockers at the point of attack. That’s a relevant stat. 

[MHS831]

3 minutes ago, Toomers said:

  My point was one of them, or both, were given “credit” for a tackle, which is being used as a selling point here, even though they couldn’t have done their jobs any worse. 
 

  Show me their how often they occupy two blockers at the point of attack. That’s a relevant stat. 

I acknowledged your point in an agreeable (yet sarcastic toward the player) tone.  We had nobody who needed to be doubled--that guy is in Buffalo now.  Probably the dumbest move we have made in a while is letting Star go and signing Poe for about the same money.

[45catfan]

Don't get suckered in by contract year play!  You have to look at his entire body of work. Is it worth another deal?  Also contribute those numbers to the switch to the 3-4.  In a 4-3 a DT is simply asked to push the pocket.   The entire team's sack numbers are up, but yet we are 31st in run D.  Don't get distracted by shiny things.

[musicman]

Contract year. It was put up or shut down his career. He is worth a decent shorter contract but probably not the bank. Someone said a 1 year 8 mil or 3 years 20 mil and that's about right for a good DT. It sometimes takes 3 years to develop on the line. It's not RR didn't know how to use him.

Good stats but everybody on defense is going to have good stats, they're on the field for so many plays this year. Look how many tackles Reid has, which is not good for a safety.