HeyVern! (The Butler Dilemma)

[MHS831]

(This is for the sake of discussion--these views do not really reflect my opinion, but I am trying to see both sides--when I checked out his stats, I was surprised).

Butler has been in on 31 tackles (good  for a DT) and has 6 sacks this season.  For comparison's sake, Gerald McCoy has been in on 19 tackles and has 5 sacks.  Kyle Love has been in on 7 tackles and has zero sacks. (He prolly done).  In fact, the other DT many Huddlers want to see gone in 2020 is Dontari Poe, who (in 11 games) had 22 tackles and 4 sacks--on pace to have his second best season as a pro.

Comparing Butler to the most productive players on the defensive front this year (playing different positions):

Mario Addison: 32 tackles, 9.5 sacks

Bruce Irvin: 35 tackles, 8.5 sacks

Vernon Butler 31 tackles, 6 sacks

Apples and oranges, but the disadvantage goes to the DT here--the fact that his numbers are nearly equal to the team's top edge rushers is noteworthy.

So what do you do with Vern?  Let him sign somewhere and hope for the 3rd round comp pick?  Bring him back?  You may not have liked the punch and the flippage, but you have to admit he was playing with some fire when everyone else seemed checked out.

 

[SJTG4]

wayyy better than given credit for

[MHS831]

Just now, SJTG4 said:

wayyy better than given credit for

I thought his stats speak for themselves and he was playing with emotion in a meaningless game blowout.  I am not so sure that he could not be a significant part of a rotation.

[ncstatekwi]

Keep him on the cheap!!!  At least someone is fired up and showing some emotion on this team!!  He still should have NOT punched that guy or thrown up the BIRD!!

[Captain Morgan]

whatever kept Butler in Riverboat's doghouse, I don't know, but once the injuries forced him in the game, he performed.

If possible, I'd sign him on a one year prove-it deal under the new coach to see if he deserves a longe contract.  Some other team could offer him more though.

[Peon Awesome]

I would offer him something like 3 years, $20 million, with 11 million guaranteed or a 1 year, $8 million deal (comparable to the 5th year option we declined) to prove he's not a flash in the pan if he prefers to bank on proving himself for a bigger payday in 2021. If he wants significantly more, let him test the free agent waters and see if anyone wants to give him more and if they do, let them have him.

[NYPantherFan]

Sounds to me he won't be back next year regardless. The only reason he wasn't cut after the Colts game was due to the comp pick formula. Makes me think if that was the reason, they have been planning on walking away.

[MHS831]

1 minute ago, NYPantherFan said:

Sounds to me he won't be back next year regardless. The only reason he wasn't cut after the Colts game was due to the comp pick formula. Makes me think if that was the reason, they have been planning on walking away.

That is the impression I have been under as well. 

[Rags]

If we stick with the 3-4, I'd like to keep him. He can play both Tackle and End. A one-two year deal wouldn't be bad.

Nothing long term though. Could just be preforming in a contract year.

[CmC2k]

[Toomers]

  First, he’s NOT getting a contract that would net us a 3rd round comp pick. That’s about 10M/yr at minimum. Which will not be close to what he gets. 
 

   And the Panthers should definitely pay for the “outlier” sack numbers even though he’s still being driven 5 yards downfield on a regular basis. That will solve the rush defense alone. 
 

 

[MHS831]

13 minutes ago, Rags said:

If we stick with the 3-4, I'd like to keep him. He can play both Tackle and End. A one-two year deal wouldn't be bad.

Nothing long term though. Could just be preforming in a contract year.

No offense because you did not start this concept, but I think not getting the 5th year was a wake up call for Butler and he played with a chip on his shoulder--and the injury to KK and later Poe gave him the opportunity to develop. 

RR sucked at developing talent--for example, Moton should have played sooner.  Burns?  since he had some veterans that were playing well (Addison and Irvin) do you practically eliminate his reps?  What about Scarlett and Reggie Bonnefon?  Ian Thomas? 

Now many on this board want to bring in a new LT because Little and Daley sucked as rookies.  Please show me the research that suggests recent rookie LTs prosper? Most all suck.  Some want Humphries because he started showing promise during his fourth year---and he was a first rounder.  No--you fix the Center and LG spots and you develop your investment at LT.  We have something to work with, and Huddlers want to bury them on the bench.  Part of coaching is developing the future, not saving your arse each week.  Cam's health is probably due to RR's "live for the moment" mentality.  I am afraid that CMC will have a short career for the same reason.

[MHS831]

16 minutes ago, Toomers said:

  First, he’s NOT getting a contract that would net us a 3rd round comp pick. That’s about 10M/yr at minimum. Which will not be close to what he gets. 
 

   And the Panthers should definitely pay for the “outlier” sack numbers even though he’s still being driven 5 yards downfield on a regular basis. That will solve the rush defense alone. 
 

 

About his contract---if VB's lawyer throws 35 tackles and 7 sacks (after this week, for example) on the table, he could get a bigger deal than you realize.  I agree with you, but you and I are biased.  We paid McCoy $8m and he is not the same player he once was.  KK makes $16m.  I can see a deal in the $7-10m range--don't laugh because I would be furious if we offered it-- All it takes is one team. 

Second point:  I watched him in goal line situations--a 330 lb DT and he was behind Reid and Boston most plays. I would like to know WHERE these 30+ tackles are being made. 

He was given a chance to play, and he did put up numbers--you cannot argue against that.   I have no confidence in him, but if this was his wake up call, he could become a decent DT.  I would hate to have spent 4 years so that some other team reaps the rewards.

[Harbingers]

9 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

Second point:  I watched him in goal line situations--a 330 lb DT and he was behind Reid and Boston most plays. I would like to know WHERE these 30+ tackles are being made. 

Are they solo or combined?

Ok looked it up. 31 combined, 22 solo, 9 assist, 7 TFL, 8 QB hit. 3 forced fumbles, 6 sacks.

I assume they all came from up the gut runs where he was single blocked and was able to tackle the RB since 7 were TFL.