PFF video on Gries first start. Surprise!

[DeAngelo Beason]

Just now, 1of10Charnatives said:

No, and I feel like you're completely missing or deliberately ignoring the underlying point here. When we were 5-2 all I was willing to say was we're playing pretty good football right now, but the potential weaknesses were visible so my position was tempered. By contrast, when we were losing later in the season, you threw your hands in the air and pronounced us the worst team in the league, ignoring earlier good play. The difference is your approach is based on extremism and emotion, my approach is based on "things look good or bad atm but let's see how they play out" Now the season is done, not only were we not the worst team by record, we weren't the worst team by point differential, or by some large number of statistical measures. So in the end any claim you made of us being the worst was entirely subjective and supportable AT BEST by cherry picking one or two facts to support your position while ignoring all else.

If that doesn't make sense to you, then I can't help you, because you're deliberately ignoring reason, which would be why my reasoned position makes no sense to you.

You're making it sound like I said we were the worst team in the league 6 weeks ago.  It was like 6 days ago.  

What you are saying makes perfect sense to me, but I don't think you're able to comprehend why I believe we were the worst team in the league AT THE TIME that I posted that we were the worst team in the league.

CMC having a big game 8 weeks ago didn't make us a good team yesterday when we lost by 32 points.

Allen throwing 4 TDs against the Cards 13 weeks ago didn't make us a good team against the Seahawks.

As the season progressed we became DRASTICALLY worse.  Averaging it out paints a much prettier picture than what the reality is.  If you can't process that information or understand why it's relevant, I can't do anything for you. 

The truth of the matter is, Kyle Allen started off with a hot hand and that created what is called a "statistical blip" that made the average look much better than what reality is.  

I will concede only one thing.  MAYBE, MAAAAAYBE we could beat the Bengals.  That is highly doubtful though.

[DeAngelo Beason]

6 minutes ago, heel31ok said:

Of course you think that ...in comparison and judging worth a higher value doesnt reduce a lower value...losing to a much better team doesn't make us worse...

So were they a better team or not?  Because the 3-7 record when they beat us would argue otherwise.

Of course if you argue that they WERE a better team, then you're inadvertently giving ammunition to my true argument, which is that total records and total averages can be deceiving when trying to judge how a team is currently playing... my whole point being that the Panthers had a small hot streak that made us look way better as an overall team than we actually were.

[DeAngelo Beason]

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Okay, since this is obviously going to continue, one thing to consider is that the Panthers finished the season with the league's second hardest SOS.

1. Cincinnati .553

2. Carolina .549

3. Atlanta .545

4. LA Rams .535

5. Cleveland .533

Fair point, although the Panthers technically made the record of their opponents better as they played them, since they were losing all of those games.

[45catfan]

You guys arguing over how bad we were this year is like you both stepping in the same pile of dog poop and b*tching over if it was a St. Bernard or a Great Dane that did it.  It's bad, it stinks, it's not going to be fun to clean up, but ultimately the details of the backstory don't freaking matter!  You have to get your shoes cleaned up and MOVE ON.

[kungfoodude]

14 minutes ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

Fair point, although the Panthers technically made the record of their opponents better as they played them, since they were losing all of those games.

Yeah but that kind of goes with every shitty team, though, so it evens out.

[1of10Charnatives]

17 minutes ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

You're making it sound like I said we were the worst team in the league 6 weeks ago.  It was like 6 days ago.  

What you are saying makes perfect sense to me, but I don't think you're able to comprehend why I believe we were the worst team in the league AT THE TIME that I posted that we were the worst team in the league.

CMC having a big game 8 weeks ago didn't make us a good team yesterday when we lost by 32 points.

Allen throwing 4 TDs against the Cards 13 weeks ago didn't make us a good team against the Seahawks.

As the season progressed we became DRASTICALLY worse.  Averaging it out paints a much prettier picture than what the reality is.  If you can't process that information or understand why it's relevant, I can't do anything for you. 

The truth of the matter is, Kyle Allen started off with a hot hand and that created what is called a "statistical blip" that made the average look much better than what reality is.  

I will concede only one thing.  MAYBE, MAAAAAYBE we could beat the Bengals.  That is highly doubtful though.

And my core point is this: focusing too much on AT THE TIME while ignoring overall season long performance leads to overstated pronouncements. Yes we ended the season looking awful, but over the course of the entire season several teams were measurably worse. Now that the season is over and it's almost certain there will be a high level of roster churn and for sure a different coaching regime, to what degree does it really matter that we were playing truly awful the last few weeks? What purpose is served by focusing solely on that one negative element?

I'm in agreement on Allen's hot hand, and we're very definitely not a good football team right now, but in addtion to Allen the defense played substantially better earlier in the season. They looked quite impressive against Houston. We can debate how and why things fell apart, but early strong play cannot be entirely dismissed if you're actually talking about the long term level of talent on the team. There is still a residual talent level better than worst here. I would not trade our roster straight up for several others. The question going forward will be whether whatever new coaching staff we put in place can build on that or continues to flounder.

[1of10Charnatives]

14 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

You guys arguing over how bad we were this year is like you both stepping in the same pile of dog poop and b*tching over if it was a St. Bernard or a Great Dane that did it.  It's bad, it stinks, it's not going to be fun to clean up, but ultimately the details of the backstory don't freaking matter!  You have to get your shoes cleaned up and MOVE ON.

My underlying point is less about our actual record than about how emotion tends to override reason and facts on this board.

[DeAngelo Beason]

7 minutes ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

And my core point is this: focusing too much on AT THE TIME while ignoring overall season long performance leads to overstated pronouncements. Yes we ended the season looking awful, but over the course of the entire season several teams were measurably worse. Now that the season is over and it's almost certain there will be a high level of roster churn and for sure a different coaching regime, to what degree does it really matter that we were playing truly awful the last few weeks? What purpose is served by focusing solely on that one negative element?

I'm in agreement on Allen's hot hand, and we're very definitely not a good football team right now, but in addtion to Allen the defense played substantially better earlier in the season. They looked quite impressive against Houston. We can debate how and why things fell apart, but early strong play cannot be entirely dismissed if you're actually talking about the long term level of talent on the team. There is still a residual talent level better than worst here. I would not trade our roster straight up for several others. The question going forward will be whether whatever new coaching staff we put in place can build on that or continues to flounder.

I think then you were assuming that my statement was in regard to our body of the work for the whole season when I was actually referencing their current performance.  Were their extenuating circumstances to just how catastrophic their descent was?  Absolutely.  But nonetheless, it was an implosion the likes of which I can't recall ever seeing before.

[1of10Charnatives]

3 minutes ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

I think then you were assuming that my statement was in regard to our body of the work for the whole season when I was actually referencing their current performance.  Were their extenuating circumstances to just how catastrophic their descent was?  Absolutely.  But nonetheless, it was an implosion the likes of which I can't recall ever seeing before.

I’ve never seen one like it either. My subjective opinion is that some meaningful portion of it is likely attributable to firing a head coach popular in the locker room mid season. The panthers have never done that, but I imagine it’s immediate impact on the locker room is severe. I think the defense’s decline probably also tells us that telling ourselves “if only Cam had been healthy we would have been a playoff team and none of this would have happened” would be wishful thinking.

Our talent level is lower than many of us, myself included,thought before the season began. But I think Allen’s hot hand early and better defensive play made things look plausible until SF exposed us. By the same token I don’t think our back end play is a true gauge of the talent level but indicative of what happens short term when you can a long term coach that players like.