Patriots Cheating Could Be Worse with Machine Learning

[JARROD]

53 minutes ago, Sgt Schultz said:

Except that the league prohibits it, and tries to actively enforce that prohibition.

The issue is that in the NFL, the talent differences are not generally great enough to mitigate somebody knowing what is coming at them.  If we were back in 1974, and we were the Houston Oilers playing the Dolphins, Steelers, or Raiders, there is a good chance they could send over every single play they were going to run and when, and we would still not be able to stop them.  Those teams (in the AFC, the Vikings, Rams, and maybe Cowboys in the NFC) were good enough that they were going to impose their will on the opponent unless they just had a bad day. 

But that era ended.  Now, the difference between winning and losing often boils down to five or six plays over the course of 60 minutes.

If I were playing the Patriots, I would change up signals, too.  And perhaps have a couple of different sets during the game. 

But none of that really matters, as the league has banned the practice.  Everybody associated with the league knows it is a banned practice, in large part due to the Patriots' previous actions.  And yet, they apparently continue to do it.

Fines apparently have no impact.  Loss of draft choices apparently have no impact.  Would the loss of salary cap dollars get somebody's attention?  I do not know, but it is worth a try.

Obviously it does matter. When the Patriots lost draft picks last time they didn’t go back to the Super Bowl for a long time and they didn’t win for longer.

Again for me it’s stupid and the only reason anyone cares or has sour grapes about it is they win all the time and no one else does.

they always find some advantage or way like the eligible receivers and who was lined up on the line. There was no rule against it so they exploited it.  When there was the 10 yard rule instead of the 5 yard rule for receivers, they beat up receivers.

I’m also very much a proof or no proof kind of person. If there’s no absolute proof that Belicheck ordered or watched the tapes then it was exactly as explained.

if the Bengals had taped the Patriots(and who knows how many other teams have taped each other but nobody cares) would anyone care at all?

 

[Anybodyhome]

5 minutes ago, JARROD said:

Obviously it does matter. When the Patriots lost draft picks last time they didn’t go back to the Super Bowl for a long time and they didn’t win for longer.

Again for me it’s stupid and the only reason anyone cares or has sour grapes about it is they win all the time and no one else does.

they always find some advantage or way like the eligible receivers and who was lined up on the line. There was no rule against it so they exploited it.  When there was the 10 yard rule instead of the 5 yard rule for receivers, they beat up receivers.

I’m also very much a proof or no proof kind of person. If there’s no absolute proof that Belicheck ordered or watched the tapes then it was exactly as explained.

if the Bengals had taped the Patriots(and who knows how many other teams have taped each other but nobody cares) would anyone care at all?

 

The Pats have a history of proven cheating. Does any other team?

Suggesting that there is no proof Belichick ordered or watched the tapes as the tipping point is like saying you'll only go to jail for bank robbery if you actually got some money. Try a bank robbery and the tellers refuse to give you anything, it's not really a crime.

[JARROD]

Just now, Anybodyhome said:

The Pats have a history of proven cheating. Does any other team?

Suggesting that there is no proof Belichick ordered or watched the tapes as the tipping point is like saying you'll only go to jail for bank robbery if you actually got some money. Try a bank robbery and the tellers refuse to give you anything, it's not really a crime.

here’s a great article.

much of what they were accused of in the past was retracted and was nothing but Crucible style hysteria.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/spygate-2-0-why-this-perplexing-patriots-cheating-scandal-is-so-tense-11576596164

as far as a history, no other team wins like they do. Other teams have had steroid cultures and a lot of others. 

no one cares because they are losers.

also again you still have to go out and execute. What good does it do to have another teams signals if they make changes? 

hell, teams watch tape relentlessly on each other all the time and still teams get blown out. Do you not think that all the other teams would have enough tape on Tom Brady by now?

obviously Baltimore did. See, you still have to execute.  Cheating would be putting NyQuil in Lamar Jackson’s gaterade ha.

 

 

[Sgt Schultz]

39 minutes ago, JARROD said:

Obviously it does matter. When the Patriots lost draft picks last time they didn’t go back to the Super Bowl for a long time and they didn’t win for longer.

Again for me it’s stupid and the only reason anyone cares or has sour grapes about it is they win all the time and no one else does.

they always find some advantage or way like the eligible receivers and who was lined up on the line. There was no rule against it so they exploited it.  When there was the 10 yard rule instead of the 5 yard rule for receivers, they beat up receivers.

I’m also very much a proof or no proof kind of person. If there’s no absolute proof that Belicheck ordered or watched the tapes then it was exactly as explained.

if the Bengals had taped the Patriots(and who knows how many other teams have taped each other but nobody cares) would anyone care at all?

 

But it doesn't matter enough to keep it from recurring.  Unless you believe the organization didn't have much to do with this other than sending a film crew in for some sort of documentary-type thing. 

If you want absolute proof, nobody is ever guilty of anything.  Absolute proof is well beyond the standard even used to send people to prison for the rest of their lives.

Had the Bengals been taping the Pats and the Pats had somebody notice it and bring it to the league's attention, we'd be hearing about it.  It would not be as dramatic, but that is largely because the Bengals hadn't been caught doing it before.  But, there would still be jokes in various places about how the Bengals can't even win when they pull a Pats stunt.

[RelaxImaPro]

49 minutes ago, JARROD said:

So you are telling me that everyone would care just as much if it was the Lions, Bengals or Jacksonville? Or Carolina?

we had the Steroid scandal and nobody cared. Did we lose draft picks and have every Tom dick and Harry blowing up boards and ESPN?

no.

they win, we don’t, so everyone gets mad.

Lol that steroid “scandal” is so overblown.  The little dirty secret is that just about the entire league does steroids at some point or another during the year.

Patriots got caught REALLY cheating that back then and some camp pushed out that story as a means to say “See!  They were cheating too!”

You think the Pats weren’t yoked up to the gills as well?  poo, BB probably administered the PEDs himself personally.

[Anybodyhome]

30 minutes ago, JARROD said:

Do you not think that all the other teams would have enough tape on Tom Brady by now?

Don't need tape on Tom Brady to beat him. You just need the rules applied to him in the same manner as most other QBs in the league. Think Tom Brady is anywhere near as good after he takes a couple Cam Newton Super Bowl type head shots?

Roughing the passer:

Not roughing the passer:

 

[JARROD]

13 minutes ago, Sgt Schultz said:

But it doesn't matter enough to keep it from recurring.  Unless you believe the organization didn't have much to do with this other than sending a film crew in for some sort of documentary-type thing. 

If you want absolute proof, nobody is ever guilty of anything.  Absolute proof is well beyond the standard even used to send people to prison for the rest of their lives.

Had the Bengals been taping the Pats and the Pats had somebody notice it and bring it to the league's attention, we'd be hearing about it.  It would not be as dramatic, but that is largely because the Bengals hadn't been caught doing it before.  But, there would still be jokes in various places about how the Bengals can't even win when they pull a Pats stunt.

Hence a lot of people go to prison on suspicion rather than proof. That’s also why quite a few now are getting out because there are ways to prove that didn’t exist previously. 
 

If the film crew were indeed contractors filming what they said, how could they prove that’s all they are doing?

see, proof goes both ways. If you are going to convict without proof, there should be indication without proof.
 

as far as other teams, do people outside this board bring out Panther Steroids, Bounty Gate, Atlanta or others? Not really.

I just think it’s totally laughable and small that people would blame their failures on filming.

[JARROD]

4 minutes ago, Anybodyhome said:

Don't need tape on Tom Brady to beat him. You just need the rules applied to him in the same manner as most other QBs in the league. Think Tom Brady is anywhere near as good after he takes a couple Cam Newton Super Bowl type head shots?

Roughing the passer:

Not roughing the passer:

 

You won’t get any argument there. I just watched a documentary on Peyton Manning’s greatest comeback win against Jon Grudens Bucs.

there were 3 flags for roughing the passer. One where he still had the ball and got shoved, arms extended. He never hit the ground.

[mc52beast]

1 hour ago, Sgt Schultz said:

Except that the league prohibits it, and tries to actively enforce that prohibition.

The issue is that in the NFL, the talent differences are not generally great enough to mitigate somebody knowing what is coming at them.  If we were back in 1974, and we were the Houston Oilers playing the Dolphins, Steelers, or Raiders, there is a good chance they could send over every single play they were going to run and when, and we would still not be able to stop them.  Those teams (in the AFC, the Vikings, Rams, and maybe Cowboys in the NFC) were good enough that they were going to impose their will on the opponent unless they just had a bad day. 

But that era ended.  Now, the difference between winning and losing often boils down to five or six plays over the course of 60 minutes.

If I were playing the Patriots, I would change up signals, too.  And perhaps have a couple of different sets during the game. 

But none of that really matters, as the league has banned the practice.  Everybody associated with the league knows it is a banned practice, in large part due to the Patriots' previous actions.  And yet, they apparently continue to do it.

Fines apparently have no impact.  Loss of draft choices apparently have no impact.  Would the loss of salary cap dollars get somebody's attention?  I do not know, but it is worth a try.

Only thing that would end it would be to take Bill out of the equation. No contact with the team, no wearing hoodies on game day. Unfortunately it’ll never happen because he’s probably retiring after this year.

[Sgt Schultz]

1 minute ago, JARROD said:

Hence a lot of people go to prison on suspicion rather than proof. That’s also why quite a few now are getting out because there are ways to prove that didn’t exist previously. 
 

If the film crew were indeed contractors filming what they said, how could they prove that’s all they are doing?

see, proof goes both ways. If you are going to convict without proof, there should be indication without proof.
 

as far as other teams, do people outside this board bring out Panther Steroids, Bounty Gate, Atlanta or others? Not really.

I just think it’s totally laughable and small that people would blame their failures on filming.

You are repetitively assuming that this is an issue only because the Pats are successful.  Since the Pats are successful, and since they were caught filming the sideline of a team (which happened to be an upcoming opponent), and since it is a big deal, therefore people are making it a big deal because the Pats are successful.

My concern is "here we go again."  And what does the league need to do to make sure it does not become "here we go again, again?"  Whether the Pats are on a path for 13-3 or 12-4, or 6-10 does not matter.  What does matter is we know the Pats are once again filming a team's sideline....which is specifically verboten.  Was it stupidly done, was it done on purpose, did Belichick know, did Kraft know, did anyone in the food chain instruct these guys to do this.....Who knows?  But according to the league dictates, the only part of that at issue is whether they are going to throw the book at anybody personally, or throw the book at the organization in general.

And yet again, if you want absolute proof of anything....good luck.

[kungfoodude]

Is JARROD a BigCat alt?

[JARROD]

3 minutes ago, Sgt Schultz said:

You are repetitively assuming that this is an issue only because the Pats are successful.  Since the Pats are successful, and since they were caught filming the sideline of a team (which happened to be an upcoming opponent), and since it is a big deal, therefore people are making it a big deal because the Pats are successful.

My concern is "here we go again."  And what does the league need to do to make sure it does not become "here we go again, again?"  Whether the Pats are on a path for 13-3 or 12-4, or 6-10 does not matter.  What does matter is we know the Pats are once again filming a team's sideline....which is specifically verboten.  Was it stupidly done, was it done on purpose, did Belichick know, did Kraft know, did anyone in the food chain instruct these guys to do this.....Who knows?  But according to the league dictates, the only part of that at issue is whether they are going to throw the book at anybody personally, or throw the book at the organization in general.

And yet again, if you want absolute proof of anything....good luck.

Well again “here we go again” could be more hysteria. Again if you are going to convict without proof you have to vindicate without proof.

hence the need for proof.

it Was just too stupid. No matter the plausible deniability of it, no matter what it was going to be seen as it is. That, coupled with the ease at which it was going to be noticed in a press booth just makes me call bullshit.

 

[JARROD]

Just now, kungfoodude said:

Is JARROD a BigCat alt?

Jarrod is just Jarrod pal.

[Shufdog]

6 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Is JARROD a BigCat alt?

Hahahaha!!! I was thinking the same thing!