Teh best college talent evaluator in a generations!

[WOW!!]

6 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

If you have a coach that has been consistently terrible at doing that very thing but do nothing about it as GM, it's your fault.

It can be but what if the owner wants the coach more than the GM.. (Rivera and Hurney 1st time) or the Coach was here before you got back here (Hurney and Rivera the 2nd time)..

Again nothing is black and white. 

[panthers55]

32 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

He doesn't understand that a player not working out in your system doesn't mean he's a bad player or a bad pick.. It's not the GM fault when he picks groceries and the coach can't cook..

To be honest the GM and the coach should be working together to ensure that the player fits the system that they will be playing in. One reason that people comparing draft picks need to remember that when deciding the GM was stupid for picking one player and passing on another is that they are playing in similar systems. Such as when you pick a zone DB versus one who has great man skills. You would think a great man coverage guy could easily learn zone skills but we have all seen cases where that didn't apply.

[Waldo]

1 minute ago, WOW!! said:

Wrong these 2 big Paragraph have no objection to them.. And you have made up narratives to fit your argument based on no facts..

1. You made a caveat to your cutting players Theory.. At 1st getting off bust players is what you said.. Now you say the reason he got off that players wasn't good enough for you?? It has to be a specific reason for you to count it??

2. Actual Butler has had a nice season and with the injuries has been needed.. I still wouldn't give him a contract.. But it definitely wasn't a mistake to have him on the roster.. And would it had count in your scenario anyway.. He was a Gman pick not a Hurney.. Wouldn't it have to be his players he needs to come off to fit your narrative??

3. When did Hurney become the Oline coach, The OC or head coach??

He doesn't have anything to do with where Rivera, Norv, and Masko decided to play a player and if they play the player at all..

If so why did we cut CJ anderson?? I'm pretty sure Hurney would have wanted to keep Anderson on the roster since he was a name recognition signing and he didn't save any money by not keeping him and playing him..

1. I said it was funny the player wasn't tossed because he sucked but because he stepped over the line. That doesn't lean to your point that he is able to move on from bust but players problematic attitudes. 

2. I would disagree. He is playing better than in his past but that doesn't say much. He is a contributor to the weak run defense. He doesn't match the changes Ron made in direction and Marty didn't have the ability to recognize the needs of the shift. 

3. He is the GM, through a time when we didn't even have an owner and the team was being sold threw a new owner and his training wheels. Please stop pretending that everything happens in a vacuum. Ron wanted Hurney back because they like to work together. If GMs were not responsible in part for coaches doing their jobs, why are they fired for it regularly? 

The last point, Anderson was wasted. He had enough ability to contribute and make it hard to justify not using in some capacity but didn't mesh with his coaches wants so Hurney took that pressure away to facilitate his coaches. He has been a yes man and enabler for his existence here which is why he covered up for JR through his awfulness and any of the coaches. He even jockeyed to get fired so Ron wouldn't the first time. So he will go that far to enable the bad but he can't have a conversation with Ron about what he sees as failures of personnel management that effect games? That sounds really one sided and I think you need to look in the mirror about twisting facts to fit your narratives. 

[Ricky Spanish]

1 hour ago, BrianS said:

We were specifically discussing third rounders.  The only one of that list you can even question is Steve Smith.  The question there is whether Hurney or Bushovsky pulled the trigger.  They were basically working together at that point, and my understanding of the situation was that Hurney was running the draft, but sure, I could be wrong on Smith.

However the others aren't questionable.  They were Hurney picks.  They were third rounders.  They had solid careers.  Even in the last 10 years in the third rounder, we've hit some.  Keeping in mind that Gettleman ran 5 of the drafts in the last 10 years, you can look at players Hurney selected and go, yea, he had a solid career.  Brandon LaFell and Terrell McClain both had solid if unspectacular careers in the league.

Do you really think that an analytics buff like Tepper hasn't run all the numbers?  Looked at all this?  Come on.

Fair enough, I can agree with the statement that LaFell and McClain had solid contributing careers, but compared to Gettleman's 3 draft picks of Hall, Worley, and Turner are overall better than Grier, Gaulden, Fua, McClain, Edwards, Lafell, and Irvin. 

Hurney produced 2 contributors, Gettleman produced a contributor, an All-Star, and a scrub. Small sample size of course, but Hurney lost his mojo completely when the league changed to the pass happy league that it is post 2009. 

[Krovvy]

Who said he was the best talent evaluator, let alone in generations? Also, what GM has never missed a pick?

This is dumb.

[Toomers]

8 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

No .. But a GM job is to draft talented players not develop them or place and train them in a system.. Thsts the coaches job.... If the player shows to be talented somewhere else later in his career.. How is that the GM fault??

And that did what for the Panthers? How does that make up for wasting a pick on a player who wasn’t close to ready to help your team. And the same GM cut the player, then the player finally plays well 6 years later, that’s a good pick? Did Hurney inject him when needed? If Gaulden starts for a team in 2025, is that a win? 

[SmokinwithWilly]

21 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

Record was also the benefit of having 2 of the best players in the league carrying the offense and defense to success.. Without Cam being super Cam Gman doesn't get that record..

Again, it takes more than Cam or Luke to produce a winning team. Gettleman was able to build around those players. And Cam did have a magical season. However, his blueprint couldnt sustain long term success, or even short term really. 7-8-1 division champ is not a success.

19 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

It can be but what if the owner wants the coach more than the GM.. (Rivera and Hurney 1st time) or the Coach was here before you got back here (Hurney and Rivera the 2nd time)..

Again nothing is black and white. 

I get that everything isnt black and white,  but Hurney has been a consistent yes man, whether it be Ron or JR. If he was so amazing as a GM, he wouldnt have been doing radio when JR called the second time. 

Again I'll say it, Hurney and Gettleman both did not get it done in Carolina. It's time to move on from both.

[Krovvy]

4 hours ago, Cracka McNasty said:

He's not though. He's good for 1, that's it. I did a deep dive on it in this thread:

 

Post that breaks it down by round Here:

It's feast or famine with all of his picks. If the dude isn't an all-star, he's out of the league within 3 years. There's really no in between. 

I didn't read this thread, but did you factor in draft picks traded, or draft picks per GM? I mean some General Managers, such as Dave Gettleman, traded away so many picks that evaluating their third rounders can be difficult since it means evaluating a third rounder, a fourth, and a sixth or whatever the amount was needed for the trade up. Hurney, while missing a few trade ups, had a high number of picks — higher than average.

[Go DJ that's my DJ]

4 hours ago, MechaZain said:

You guys are aware that Samuel, Moton, Jackson, Armah, Little, Butker, were all after the first right

Im aware that all of those players outside of Moton are trash.

[Ricky Spanish]

22 minutes ago, Krovvy said:

I didn't read this thread, but did you factor in draft picks traded, or draft picks per GM? I mean some General Managers, such as Dave Gettleman, traded away so many picks that evaluating their third rounders can be difficult since it means evaluating a third rounder, a fourth, and a sixth or whatever the amount was needed for the trade up. Hurney, while missing a few trade ups, had a high number of picks — higher than average.

That's actually a really good point and not something I even thought to measure. That'd be something to definitely look into, but I'm not entirely sure how to do it. The way I did it originally made it a binary black and white determination of if the draft pick was "good" or "Bad" based solely on if they had received any end of year award of any kind (either pro bowl or all pro of some institution of any kind). Eventually, someone  told me about the CarAV which is a metric that PFR uses to give a numerical value based on the quality of a player over the span of their career, and that's what I ended up using to measure the value of the pick based on the round, but not the value on the pick based on what was given up to take them. I'd have to look into CarAV rankings and find a threshold number of what would be considered a "Good" player based on what was given up for them and who was taken in their place. 

[Mr. Scot]

3 hours ago, BrianS said:

Do you think Jack Bushovsky was drafting?  My understanding was that Hurney was basically the GM for the purposes of the draft as his title of was Director of Player Operations.

And I wasn't saying those players started 50 games for the Panthers, many of them DID NOT.  Many of them started games for other teams.  Starting games is the ONLY standard that can objectively be used in any event.  It's the measuring stick from which the 12% number is developed.  Evan Mathis, Brandon LaFell, Will Witherspoon, Dan Connor . . . lots of those third rounders had solid careers in the league, not just here.

Your understanding is wrong. Some of his apologists have tried to float that idea but it's false. Jack Bushovsky was still in charge of players. Hurney's position was salary cap management and logistics.

As to using starts as a statistic, Amini Silatolu started over Andrew Norwell for several games. Would that make him the better player?

[Mr. Scot]

2 hours ago, panthers55 said:

For that team and that system perhaps but you assume that players will function equally in all systems and if they are a bad fit in one system they will automatically be bad in any system. Obviously anyone who pays attention would know that isn't true and there has to be a good fit between the players skills and how they are being used. To me Gaulden was a deficit in coverage  and should be used as a strong safety who plays primarily in the box which is not the way our system works or how he was used. But carry on with your absolutes and black and white logic. 

Did the GM not know what system the coach was running when he made the pick?

Because unless he was unaware (which, frankly, would make him an idiot) then he picked that player to play in that system.

And if it doesn't work out, then yes, he was a bad pick.

[Camp Fodder]

6 hours ago, MechaZain said:

You guys are aware that Samuel, Moton, Jackson, Armah, Little, Butker, were all after the first right

You realize all these guys are jags except for maybe butker and guess who let him go

[panthers55]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Did the GM not know what system the coach was running when he made the pick?

Because unless he was unaware (which, frankly, would make him an idiot) then he picked that player to play in that system.

And if it doesn't work out, then yes, he was a bad pick.

Or a player can be picked for one system and then it changes like going from a 4-3 zone coverage scheme to a 3-4 emphasizing more man coverage. And  given that we are likely going to a new system again next year with  a new coach how could Hurney know that 2 years ago,  a guy he picked for one system would be used differently in year 2 and if he had stayed would be in a likely different system next year.  Unless you think that drafted players should instantly play well and that there isn't a big adjustment at some positions or we should wait at least 3 years.

To be clear, I wasn't a big fan of Gaulden and I wasnt crazy about the pick. Still I will give him a little bit more time before declaring him a bust although he clearly wasn't a good fit for how we used him especially this year with Fewell managing the secondary.