Curtis Samuel is not killing drives

[MasterAwesome]

3 hours ago, Icege said:

Curtis Samuel is "blanketed" but has better separation than DJ Moore (1.72 vs 1.36). Samuel is ranked #24 to Moore's #42, and we all agree that DJ is good (I hope?). Samuel also gets on avg the 3rd most cushion out of all receivers.

The stats and tape don't line up with the rebuttals provided. Curtis Samuel is a good WR.

Btw, why is it that folks like to claim that Cam "can't throw a WR open" but when Kyle Allen can't throw to an open WR it isn't Kyle's fault?

My “blanketed” comment is referring to those videos you’ve been pounding the table about this whole time...if you want us to ignore those videos now all of a sudden and go back to statistics, I’m fine with that. I’ve been saying those videos are dumb this whole time, so I’m glad we’re finally on the same page.

Can you articulate why you think that having high cushion is detrimental to a receiver’s ability to get separation? That simply means he’s fast and teams don’t want to get beat deep, so it may impact his ability to separate deep.  That also means that will open him up to more separation on the underneath routes.

Who the hell made that claim? Is this why you don’t want to quote me, so you can fabricate absurd claims and then indirectly attribute them to me? You’ve made your narrative clear from the beginning that anyone who criticizes Samuel has questionably racial motives and now you’re playing mental gymnastics to see how you can apply that narrative to any of his critics. I’ve already said Kyle Allen is most of the problem, but your stance is that Samuel is perfect and none of the problem.

[MasterAwesome]

1 hour ago, top dawg said:

Nah, dude. It's been way more than five passes. Ball placement, and under-throws have been consistent. I've seen markedly more bad passes than drops. The drops aren't good, but, then again, some of the best receivers in the game have dropped balls. I say this only to point out that we're missing way more potential game-changing plays on bad passes than drops in reference to Samuel. You and Igo can talk about cherry picking all your want; I've watched every play of every game, and my eyes aren't lying.

I do think he needs to work on catching & hands-catching with that JUGS machine he bought though. That's been a problem, but he's still a legitimately explosive receiver regardless. 

Was just referring to the passes in his 9 clips he posted.

My contention is with him entirely absolving Samuel of all blame and saying he is not even part of the problem. Maybe I came across too harsh and hyperbolic when I said he’s a bad WR, I don’t think he is...but he is part of the problem, albeit nowhere near the biggest part (Allen and the o-line are much bigger detractors to our offensive woes).

Simply put: do you think Samuel is part of the problem or not?

[Saca312]

On 12/12/2019 at 2:44 PM, MasterAwesome said:

The fact that you're only looking at the "bad throws" is precisely what I mean by cherry-picking. 

There is a larger ratio of bad throws vs poor effort plays by Curtis Samuel. He'd be cherry picking more trying to find those poor effort plays in comparison to bad throws.

[MasterAwesome]

1 hour ago, top dawg said:

By the way, I've seen Samuel legitimately kill maybe 2-4 drives this season, so I'll still bet on his potential & upside. 

Not according to @Icege ...he has killed 0 drives apparently.

[Saca312]

One of these days Curtis Samuel will have a healthy QB that can actually get him the ball and apparently more than half of you on this board would be gawking and acting all surprised at "oMg cUrTis SaMuEl's AcTuAlLy GoOd?"

[Saca312]

5 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Not according to @Icege ...he has killed 0 drives apparently.

I mean no one's perfect. He's had some bad plays that he should've made. It happens. WRs like Julio Jones and others have had bad mistakes that they shouldn't have made.

But I don't think that's a defining characteristic given he's overwhelmingly open and more times disappointed by the ineptitude of his QB at throwing him a good pass. The few bad plays from Curtis don't overshadow the dozens he's been missed on.

[Saca312]

On 12/11/2019 at 2:05 PM, Jeremy Igo said:

Cherry picking plays to show is fun. Now let me make one with a dozen horrible effort plays 

Would love you to show us a dozen, because I can't find that high of a number horrible effort plays.

Would be cherry picking more to get to that amount than I would be Kyle Allen's missing him with bad passing.

[MasterAwesome]

7 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

There is a larger ratio of bad throws vs poor effort plays by Curtis Samuel. He'd be cherry picking more trying to find those poor effort plays in comparison to bad throws.

You know what wouldn’t be cherry-picking? Looking at all Samuel’s targets...crazy, I know. This is why we should leave things to actual analysts because they actually look at every snap to encompass the player’s entire body of work, a novel concept for some people on here who claim to be analysts but already have preconceived beliefs and then look for clips to support that belief.

I never mentioned anything about Samuel’s poor effort though? Not sure if you’re mixing me up with someone else...

[MasterAwesome]

8 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

I mean no one's perfect. He's had some bad plays that he should've made. It happens. WRs like Julio Jones and others have had bad mistakes that they shouldn't have made.

But I don't think that's a defining characteristic given he's overwhelmingly open and more times disappointed by the ineptitude of his QB at throwing him a good pass. The few bad plays from Curtis don't overshadow the dozens he's been missed on.

If you read all my posts, you would see that I’ve echoed the same sentiments you just said...I said I think most of Samuel’s struggles can be attributed to Kyle Allen. 
 

The difference is that you acknowledge Samuel has some bad plays and some drops, whereas Icege basically took the stance “If you criticize anything about Samuel and think he is even any part of the problem for our offensive struggles this year, you’re probably racist” lol. I thought he seemed like one of the more rational posters on here but apparently he has been TheRed-pilled.

[Saca312]

Just now, MasterAwesome said:

You know what wouldn’t be cherry-picking? Looking at all Samuel’s targets...crazy, I know. This is why we should leave things to actual analysts because they actually look at every snap to encompass the player’s entire body of work, a novel concept for some people on here who claim to be analysts but already have preconceived beliefs and then look for clips to support that belief.

I mean I have believe it or not and often times me evaluating a person's whole film is in fact how I reach my conclusions, which some of you deem biased and ill-founded apparently, but it's whatever.

Matt Harmon, Josh Norris, and even Kinsley are objective in their analysis and don't have a particular reason or motive to have to be biased or preconceived. They all agree Curtis is being held back more than he is hurting the team. 

Very few actual "analysts" exist. If you're talking about any major network analysts or pretending certain NFL players have the pedigree of being an "analyst," well I'll be the first to surprise you and show you how quickly a few "kyle allen goat" clips from one or two months ago changed to "allen is not the answer" takes. They're hot take machines and the "biased" guys who kept steady in reminding everyone of Kyle Allen's concerning faults have turned out to be right.

I was probably even too optimistic in my evaluation hoping he'd continually improve on his mistakes and short-comings. Unfortunately, he showed a few flashes, then it was gone.

[Saca312]

1 minute ago, MasterAwesome said:

If you read all my posts, you would see that I’ve echoed the same sentiments you just said...I said I think most of Samuel’s struggles can be attributed to Kyle Allen. 

Fair enough. 

It's also fair to bring up his body catching tendencies. While he has definitely improved since college in that department, it's still evident he's getting rid of those demons at times. And that's just something that takes time in general.

[MasterAwesome]

6 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

I mean I have believe it or not and often times me evaluating a person's whole film is in fact how I reach my conclusions, which some of you deem biased and ill-founded apparently, but it's whatever.

Matt Harmon, Josh Norris, and even Kinsley are objective in their analysis and don't have a particular reason or motive to have to be biased or preconceived. They all agree Curtis is being held back more than he is hurting the team. 

Very few actual "analysts" exist. If you're talking about any major network analysts or pretending certain NFL players have the pedigree of being an "analyst," well I'll be the first to surprise you and show you how quickly a few "kyle allen goat" clips from one or two months ago changed to "allen is not the answer" takes. They're hot take machines and the "biased" guys who kept steady in reminding everyone of Kyle Allen's concerning faults have turned out to be right.

I was probably even too optimistic in my evaluation hoping he'd continually improve on his mistakes and short-comings. Unfortunately, he showed a few flashes, then it was gone.

For the 294828th time, as do I...(bolded). But he is still hurting the team sometimes and has killed some drives. Both points that the OP has directly denied.

Hell no I’m not talking about TV personalities lol. More the people behind the scenes who do the actual analytics on every player, like the contributors to PFF and NextGenStats and all that who actually review every snap. Not that I necessarily take their overall evaluations as truth, but I can at least trust their individual metrics that are recorded (separation, cushion, catch percentage, etc.).

 

[Icege]

2 hours ago, Saca312 said:

I mean no one's perfect. He's had some bad plays that he should've made. It happens. WRs like Julio Jones and others have had bad mistakes that they shouldn't have made.

But I don't think that's a defining characteristic given he's overwhelmingly open and more times disappointed by the ineptitude of his QB at throwing him a good pass. The few bad plays from Curtis don't overshadow the dozens he's been missed on.

This

[Icege]

2 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

You know what wouldn’t be cherry-picking? Looking at all Samuel’s targets... 

We did that. Folks looking at all of his targets tracked his separation, cushion rcvd, drops, catchable balls, etc. That's where we got those stats. Some went so far as to show examples of this. That's why you were given a sample size of 15, which accounts for nearly half of the population of uncatchable passes cited.

You and others still rejected this.