"No One Could Play Behind This OL"

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

His OL this year has been banged up and underperforming. Even when he hasn't been sacked, he's been under significant pressure.

Hell, his left tackle for several games was Marshall Newhouse, a depth guy we chose not to re-sign.

#22 in PBWR, #6 in Adjusted Sack Rate, #6 in Sacks Allowed, #19 in QB Hits.

I'd say he is doing a good job of getting rid of the ball with some below average OL play according to those rankings. But, not anywhere near the bottom of the OL groups in the NFL, just simply below average.

[Snake]

Don't need a table to tell me how bad it is. It's horrible but yes Lamar Jackson and Russle Wilson would probably make it look better. 

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, kungfoodude said:

#22 in PBWR, #6 in Adjusted Sack Rate, #6 in Sacks Allowed, #19 in QB Hits.

I'd say he is doing a good job of getting rid of the ball with some below average OL play according to those rankings. But, not anywhere near the bottom of the OL groups in the NFL, just simply below average.

Is that because they're actually decent or because he makes them look better?

This is why I've never been a big stat guy. There are so many variables to football that unless you really think it through, it's very easy to get fooled.

I think stats can be used for clarification, but you have to rely primarily on your brain and your eyes.

And yeah, that's one of the things that makes me a little bit nervous about Tepper's approach.

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Don't know. We were running Seifert's West Coast Offense back then.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/car/2001.htm

I was incorrect. We passed the ball on 62% of attempts that season. So, we appear to have done a good job of protecting the QB long enough. Unfortunately no PBWR stats are available for then. That would be interesting to see.

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Is that because they're actually decent or because he makes them look better?

This is why I've never been a big stat guy. There are so many variables to football that unless you really think it through, it's very easy to get fooled.

I think stats can be used for clarification, but you have to rely primarily on your brain and your eyes.

And yeah, that's one of the things that makes me a little bit nervous about Tepper's approach.

I would say based on seeing them play and looking at statistics, Brady is suffering from #1 Lack of adequate supporting receivers, #2. Age, #3 OL play.

He, like Brees do a good job of getting rid of the ball quickly but PBWR will still show the performance of the OL, as will QB Hits. I am sure there are some deeper stats like passing statistics/metrics with a clean pocket and without that could add some clarity but I don't have immediate access to those kind of advanced stats. 

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I would say based on seeing them play and looking at statistics, Brady is suffering from #1 Lack of adequate supporting receivers, #2. Age, #3 OL play.

He, like Brees do a good job of getting rid of the ball quickly but PBWR will still show the performance of the OL, as will QB Hits. I am sure there are some deeper stats like passing statistics/metrics with a clean pocket and without that could add some clarity but I don't have immediate access to those kind of advanced stats. 

Have to remember the offensive line affects your ability to run as well. And your ability to run affects your ability to pass.

Stuff like this is why I just don't think there is any where you can statistically quantify everything that goes into good offensive line play. Stats can be a useful tool, but you have to be wise about it.

Having smart coaches is a big deal too. They were getting killed last night until McDaniels caught something they could exploit throwing to the outside.

I've not been a big fan of McDaniels as our next head coach, but if there's one area of our game that he could improve heavily, its in-game adjustments.

[kungfoodude]

24 minutes ago, Eric4280 said:

Is it scheme related or is it the individual players? Because if you’re looking at everything individually- Little was technically good a couple games and had some clunkers. Daley was also above serviceable. Van Roten was highly improved, especially in comparison to how he was. Paradis was given a contract on the basis of being a top five center (but hasn’t played like it).

 

Trai.... this is where I’m a bit baffled . Is he done? When’s the last time he’s been elite? I don’t WANNA write him off, but I feel like his impact has become minimal. And lastly, Moton, who I’ve been big on. Hasn’t been bad bad.

 

How exactly do we fix this? Is it the scheme or players?

I think these kind of questions will only get answered moving forward. If guys like Williams, Daley, Little, Turner, Paradis, GVR, etc all start looking substantially better in the next 2-3 years(whether here or elsewhere) then you can probably safely say it was a scheme and/or chemistry issue. 

[DPardue]

I don't know how many hits Newton (or Allen) have to take before the organization finally realizes that protecting your QB is vitally important and is darn sure more important than wasting a third round pick on a Will Grier type.  I don't understand why you invest in a franchise QB and then fail to protect him. This mentality has really hurt the organization. 

Rivera always talked about how important it was to protect Newton, but Newton took a beating over the course of the past two or three years thanks to an ineffective and depleted offensive line.  The talk never matched the walk.  It seems every year about this time, it's the same old song and dance about how injury ridden the OL is, how such-and-such is going to be brought up from the practice squad, blah blah blah while the QB (Newton especially) is sitting back in the pocket in critical condition from the repetitive hits. 

This O line needs to be reconstructed to improve both the quality and the quantity (depth). 

 

 

 

[Forty-Eight]

58 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I keep hearing this thrown around as if our OL is so bad that a quarterback would be physically incapable of performing behind it. So, I am going to take a look at some statistics to see how that notion holds up. So let's add some QB's to the pool with some common OL play metrics. NOTE: If an underperforming team has utilized multiple starting QB's this season, they will all be added to the spreadsheet. I am going to establish a MINIMUM OF THREE STARTS as the threshold for inclusion.

Bottom Five Team Pass Block Win Rates

28. Seattle Seahawks, 51%
29. Atlanta Falcons, 49%
30. Carolina Panthers, 48%
31. Cincinnati Bengals, 42%
32. Miami Dolphins, 41%

So, this would add QB's: Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan, Kyle Allen, Andy Dalton/Ryan Finley, Ryan Fitzpatrick/Josh Rosen

Bottom Five Adjusted Sack Rates

28. Carolina Panthers, 9.1%

29. Miami Dolphins, 9.5%

30. New York Jets, 10.4%

31. Washington Redskins, 10.4%

32. Tennessee Titans, 12.4%

This would add these additional QB's: Sam Darnold, Case Keenum/Dwayne Haskins, Ryan Tannehill/Marcus Mariota

Bottom Five NFL QB Sacks Per Game

28. New York Jets, 3.6

29. Arizona Cardinals, 3.6

30. Tennessee Titans, 3.8

31. Carolina Panthers, 3.8

32. Miami Dolphins, 3.9

This would add these additional QB's: Kylar Murray

Bottom Five QB Hits Allowed

28. New York Jets, 90

29. Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 93

30. New York Giants, 96

31. Atlanta Falcons, 106

32. Miami Dolphins, 118

This would add these additional QB's: Jameis Winston, Daniel Jones

 

This should be our final list of "Worst OL Play" QB's to compare:

Russell Wilson

Matt Ryan

Cam Newton

Kyle Allen

Andy Dalton

Ryan Finley

Ryan Fitzpatrick

Josh Rosen

Sam Darnold

Case Keenum

Dwayne Haskins

Ryan Tannehill

Marcus Mariota

Kylar Murray

Jameis Winston

Daniel Jones

 

To rank the QB's I am going to use the following: QBR, Pass TD %, Interception %, Completion %, Total Yards per Game, Total TD's per Game, Total TO's Per Game, Total Interceptions + Fumbles Per Game, DYAR, DVOA

Each category will be assigned a point value based on ranking(Best in category - 15 points, Worst in category - 1 point). 

This was the result:

 

 

The QBs we have suck as bad if not worse than the OL. 

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Have to remember the offensive line affects your ability to run as well. And your ability to run affects your ability to pass.

Stuff like this is why I just don't think there is any where you can statistically quantify everything that goes into good offensive line play. Stats can be a useful tool, but you have to be wise about it.

Having smart coaches is a big deal too. They were getting killed last night until McDaniels caught something they could exploit throwing to the outside.

I've not been a big fan of McDaniels as our next head coach, but if there's one area of our game that he could improve heavily, its in-game adjustments.

Yes, OL play is equal parts pass protection and pass blocking. As far as quantifying good offensive line play, yes I think most things can be quantified in terms of unit performance. Individual play may be a little more trying to isolate because there are a lot of factors involved that may not be easy to include.

New England has always been elite at in-game adjustments, regardless of their coordinators. It's something that Belichick excels in and something that Ron was so hopelessly bad at.

[stirs]

Last half dozen guys are pretty much rookies as far as starts.  Hard to put those guys out there with no protection

[manu4t]

Good analysis 

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yes, OL play is equal parts pass protection and pass blocking. As far as quantifying good offensive line play, yes I think most things can be quantified in terms of unit performance. Individual play may be a little more trying to isolate because there are a lot of factors involved that may not be easy to include.

New England has always been elite at in-game adjustments, regardless of their coordinators. It's something that Belichick excels in and something that Ron was so hopelessly bad at.

See, this is the bottom line for me as far as what I want:

Smart coaches.

Belichick has always put a premium on football intelligence in both his coaches and his players. It certainly hasn't hurt the Patriots having Dante Scarnecchia coaching their OL this whole time. Well, except for one year when he retired. The line that year was so bad they fired his replacement and asked him to come back.

It sounds like that's what Tepper wants too, and also like that played a big part in Ron Rivera being let go.

Here's hoping...

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

See, this is the bottom line for me as far as what I want:

Smart coaches.

Belichick has always put a premium on football intelligence in both his coaches and his players. It certainly hasn't hurt the Patriots having Dante Scarnecchia coaching their OL this whole time. Well, except for one year when he retired. The line that year was so bad they fired his replacement and asked him to come back.

It sounds like that's what Tepper wants too, and also like that played a big part in Ron Rivera being let go.

Here's hoping...

Agreed. I want to finally be a team that doesn't try and pound a square peg into a round hole and actually goes out to adjust for each opponent, exploit their weaknesses and overcome their gameplan. We just seem to rarely be able to do that.