Hurney should stay on with the Panthers...

[bobowilson]

Hurney shouldn't be getting blame for this season, nor last season

We were 6-2 with Cam Newton last year, and would be in the playoffs with a healthy Newton (who Hurney drafted in the first place).  It's not his fault Cam got injured and destroyed behind terrible offensive lines Gettleman built the past 6 years.

Not many teams are going to have a winning record with Kyle Allen, and if you want to blame him for not signing a better backup QB, I'm not sure who else he could have signed.  Kyle Allen is sub standard as a starter in the NFL, but probably one of the best backup QBs in the NFL, and we got him for cheap.

 

 

[Icege]

12 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

Ugh....you know what is even more scary, to look at the rest of the first rounders combined. Basically only CMC and Dan Morgan were hits. Almost every other 1st round pick in Panthers history was some level of bust.

1995: Kerry Collins

1996: Tim Biakabutuka

1997: Rae Carruth

1998: Jason Peter

1999: None

2000: Rashard Anderson

2001: Dan Morgan

2013: Star Lotulelei(Not really a bust, just not a star player)

2014: Kelvin Benjamin

2015: Shaq Thompson(Not really a bust, just not a star player yet)

2016: Vernon Butler

2017: CMC

 

I mean, if we are giving Hurney a pass on Otah why aren't we giving one for KB? If Hurney couldn't have known Otah would eat himself out of a job, then the same literally goes for KB.

[bobowilson]

1 minute ago, Icege said:

I mean, if we are giving Hurney a pass on Otah why aren't we giving one for KB? If Hurney couldn't have known Otah would eat himself out of a job, then the same literally goes for KB.

Because Otah was good before he got hurt.

Kelvin Benjamin was never good, even during his rookie season.  People will look at the 1000 yards he got, but this is a lazy analysis.

He ranked 3rd to last in separation his rookie year, nearly led the league in drops, and was a terrible blocker.  PFF graded him as one of the worst wide receivers in the NFL even before his injuries and weight gain.

His 1000 yards were purely the result of getting extremely high targets on a team who had no one else to throw the ball to.  The NFL has proven that nearly anyone can get 1000 yards if they're force fed enough targets.  They were never efficient yard.

In addition, he racked up so many of those yards in garbage times.  End the myth that Kelvin Benjamin was ever good.

[bobowilson]

Kelvin Benjamin's issues weigh motivation, maturity, and even weight were well known at Florida State, and why he dropped to the last 1st round in the first place.  He wasn't even motivated at FSU with the exception of a hand full of games.

It wasnt some new mystery that suddenly emerged once he got to the NFL.  He was taken off many draft boards for these concerns during the scouting process.

Gettleman was never able to get past a guy's Hog Molly physical traits and try to project how their personalities would fit in the NFL.  He made the same mistake with Kony Ealy, who was the Kelvin Benjamins of DEs, and known to be really lazy at Missouri.

If you were a huge physical hog molly type, and had good stats in college, Gettleman would draft you regardless of your mental makeup.

 

[Toomers]

6 hours ago, Doc Holiday said:

What was the $10m option bonus if not a kill clause? I mentioned in my original argument that it wasnt called a kill clause but for all intents and purposes it was. I stated it there black in white in the old thread. as far as where I'm getting my numbers from read your numbers you gave before my post and you will see where the cap savings was, just read your own post, thats all I'm asking you to do now. simple things.

Your argument now as I understand it, was that its not specifically called a kill clause in the contract. In my originally argument I never said it was, even stated that it wasnt called a kill clause. its just easier to say it that way than to explain the option bonus mechanic every time. 

and here we sit, yet another deflection from toomers.

 

6 hours ago, Doc Holiday said:

What was the $10m option bonus if not a kill clause? I mentioned in my original argument that it wasnt called a kill clause but for all intents and purposes it was. I stated it there black in white in the old thread. as far as where I'm getting my numbers from read your numbers you gave before my post and you will see where the cap savings was, just read your own post, thats all I'm asking you to do now. simple things.

Your argument now as I understand it, was that its not specifically called a kill clause in the contract. In my originally argument I never said it was, even stated that it wasnt called a kill clause. its just easier to say it that way than to explain the option bonus mechanic every time. 

and here we sit, yet another deflection from toomers.

It was a 10M option bonus. If NOT exercised we pay a 10M buyout. EXACTLY how it is written. Just because it was written as an option bonus doesn’t mean it wasn’t guaranteed. It always was. From the day it’s was signed. Kalil just didn’t get the full amount until that day. It was done to keep his 1st year cap hit lower. If you have to pay 10M, no matter what, where is the kill clause. 
 

   No kill clause, no choices. Just how to spread it out. What could Hurney do? I would think that someone accusing me would know the answer. Yet you’re making it up as you go along. Sad thing is, you have read the facts in the thread I posted, from me and others like AU PANTHER AND Carpafan96 and others You know, actual grown ups who know the salary cap. I want to hear more about your 11M  and 17M numbers you made up. Let’s go over that as well. 
 

  One of us is dealing straight from the contract. Wher as you are making up words, phrases and numbers that exist only in your head. But I’m deflecting? Good luck with that. 

[Doc Holiday]

1 hour ago, Toomers said:

 

It was a 10M option bonus. If NOT exercised we pay a 10M buyout. EXACTLY how it is written. Just because it was written as an option bonus doesn’t mean it wasn’t guaranteed. It always was. From the day it’s was signed. Kalil just didn’t get the full amount until that day. It was done to keep his 1st year cap hit lower. If you have to pay 10M, no matter what, where is the kill clause. 
 

   No kill clause, no choices. Just how to spread it out. What could Hurney do? I would think that someone accusing me would know the answer. Yet you’re making it up as you go along. Sad thing is, you have read the facts in the thread I posted, from me and others like AU PANTHER AND Carpafan96 and others You know, actual grown ups who know the salary cap. I want to hear more about your 11M  and 17M numbers you made up. Let’s go over that as well. 
 

  One of us is dealing straight from the contract. Wher as you are making up words, phrases and numbers that exist only in your head. But I’m deflecting? Good luck with that. 

The buy out wasn’t guaranteed, he got nothing, it’s says so itself it’s converted for salary for the year. Salary isn’t guaranteed only signing bonuses so we don’t have to pay him the buy out.

if we don’t exercise it, we would have only owed him the remaining $11m in signing bonus that he was Still due. The other 17m on his contract would have been salary thus recoverable when cut. Getting out of a $55m contract for $11m instead of having to pay another $30m(just a guess I didn’t look up the numbers there) but we now have done just that. We still owe the bastard $9m next year.

i already told you to read you’re own post to get the numbers(something you’ve not done) Again a deflection, you’re telling me to grow up but you change the point of the conversation every time you get cornered lol

again the entire point of this argument was if there was a “kill clause” or not. And there clearly was because that’s what the fuging option bonus was.

riddle me this what was the Option bonus if not there to supply an out for the Panthers in Kalil’s contract? You cannot answer that truthfully because admitting what it is would be admitting you were wrong this entire damn time.

[kungfoodude]

3 hours ago, Icege said:

I mean, if we are giving Hurney a pass on Otah why aren't we giving one for KB? If Hurney couldn't have known Otah would eat himself out of a job, then the same literally goes for KB.

I am on the record as saying Otah was a bust. He was a good player initially but his career was derailed by injuries, so his impact and our investment were not really returned. KB is still a bust, IMO. He was productive his first two years but he was also targeted 263 times(8.2/game) over those two years. He should be able to produce and, really, he probably should have produced more. Not to mention, his decline post-Carolina was pretty telling.

[kungfoodude]

4 hours ago, Khyber53 said:

I think a case can be made that he should stay for more than just the draft picks. He has made some incredible gets in the off season here. He got some great personnel but he isn't the guy who coaches them up and gets them into a cohesive unit. He also isn't the training table team.

Honestly, Marty 2.0  fixed a lot of the problems we saw with Marty 1.0 and fixed a lot of the bad feelings that had been left in the destructive wake of Gettleman 1.0.

Maybe we should keep him around.

No. He's been okay but he has not been stellar. We still have obvious roster weaknesses that did not get filled. That's pretty damning.

[Mr. Scot]

8 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

Even if that were the case, it's not a positive.

Definitely not.

My theory has long been that when Butler came into the league, he was expecting to be a starter. When Short signed his contract and Butler found out he was going to be a backup, Butler basically went into "hissy fit" mode.

The smart move would have been to play the absolute best he could and try to earn a starting job. Instead, he seems to have gotten bitter and half-assed it with the idea that somehow, it was hurting the team more than it was hurting him.

Now that he's hit a contract year and has a starting job, he suddenly seems to be trying harder. Probably too late though.

Just dumb...

[Mr. Scot]

Quick public service announcement for those who missed when he said it:

Doc wasn't seriously suggesting this when he made this thread. He was goofing around.

It's taken some pretty off-the-wall twists, turns and tangents, but it was never meant to be serious.

[kungfoodude]

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Definitely not.

My theory has long been that when Butler came into the league, he was expecting to be a starter. When Short signed his contract and Butler found out he was going to be a backup, Butler basically went into "hissy fit" mode.

The smart move would have been to play the absolute best he could and try to earn a starting job. Instead, he seems to have gotten bitter and half-assed it with the idea that somehow, it was hurting the team more than it was hurting him.

Now that he's hit a contract year and has a starting job, he suddenly seems to be trying harder. Probably too late though.

Just dumb...

We'll likely never know what his reasoning was for not playing up to his draft position but the one thing that we do know is that keeping a player who has basically ONLY produced in his contract year..........well, bye.

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, kungfoodude said:

We'll likely never know what his reasoning was for not playing up to his draft position but the one thing that we do know is that keeping a player who has basically ONLY produced in his contract year..........well, bye.

I couldn't justify keeping a guy with that kind of attitude, even if he does look better now.

The only thing that might change my mind on that if I were the team would be if he admitted to it, apologized and promised to only give its best from now on. And even then, anything I offered him would be incentive-laden.

[kungfoodude]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I couldn't justify keeping a guy with that kind of attitude, even if he does look better now.

The only thing that might change my mind on that if I were the team would be if he admitted to it, apologized and promised to only give its best from now on. And even then, anything I offered him would be incentive-laden.

I'd sign him to a league minimum one year deal. Keep proving it.

[Khyber53]

42 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

No. He's been okay but he has not been stellar. We still have obvious roster weaknesses that did not get filled. That's pretty damning.

It's pretty close to impossible to find competent guys to fill every position in a single offseason, particularly one in which we're trying to transition from a 4-3 to a 3-4 defense... that's a lot of personnel change.

There's only so much you can do.