FS1 discussion on Cam and Tepper note just discussion

[1of10Charnatives]

2 hours ago, BrianS said:

Actually, I agree with where you're trying to go, but I think it's a little more complex.

I believe that what happens with super talented players is they look at other players and only see the physical tools.  Using Elway as the example, you look at his physical tools . . . great arm, above average mobility.  But those were things that any number of players possess.  So now, Elway looks at a player and says "Hey, this guys has the same physical tools that I had."  And he's right.  What these executives who were formerly players aren't able to adequately measure and judge is what's in the head and heart. 

These exec's fail because they simply assume that if you have the same physical tools, you have the same internal tools as well.  Nothing could be further from the truth, and honestly that's the biggest difference between successful and unsuccessful players more often than not.  This to me is something that I see over and over.  How else do you explain those 7th round / undrafted players who go on to be great?

The most successful exec's are what they are because they've somehow learned to pick out the indicators of what a player has inside.

Scouting is inexact because it measures the things that can be measured and quantified, and although there are interviews with players prior to the draft, interviewing is also inexact, especially when the people doing the interviewing are coaches and gm's who presumably do not have a background in assessment through that process. I'd be curious to know how many teams actually use experts to develop interview questions and evaluate player interviews to offer their input. 

At any rate, this leads to a huge bias in favor of measurables (see: NFL scouting combine actually being broadcast as an event, despite impressive showings there having no proven link to success in the NFL). You can measure how fast a guy can run, but not his confidence or work ethic, so evaluators tend to have a bias in favor of measurables because they don't want to focus on how much of the process is a shot in the dark or educated guess at best. I agree that the best evaluators are probably those that have developed some instinct for more properly weighing less measurable factors.  Steve Smith clearly should have been a first round pick, but scouts could see he was five nine, they couldn't see how badly he wanted to just destroy his competition and how hard he would work to do so.

I always remember Ozzie Newsome's line about drafting Terrell Suggs, because it shows the limits of what measurables can tell you and the absurdity of weighting them too strongly. He was asked shortly after drafting Suggs when Suggs had dropped below expected draft spot even after setting a single season NCAA sack record, and the drop was attributed to team's being concerned about Suggs slow 40 times in the combine:

"If we needed him to run 40 yards to get to the qb, yeah that would worry me, but we don't, so it doesn't."

[DubE_4MR]

At the end of the day, the two sides could potentially have a big contract negotiation coming up within the next 1-2 years, so there will be a battle for leverage. The Panthers side wants to have options and use the injuries to negotiate a favorable contract. Cam's side will use his 100% health, performance when healthy, the booming QB market and his importance to the franchise to negotiate a contact in his favor. The 2 sides just have to find something that works best for both. 

[1of10Charnatives]

15 hours ago, CPF4LIFE said:

Who the hell is Tapper?? 

One of my big pet peeves watching sports is when on air commetators, be they play by play, color commentary or in studio talking heads, can't get players, coaches, or in this case, an owner's name right.

YOU GET PAID TO TALK ABOUT THESE PEOPLE FOR A LIVING! YOUR JOB IS NOT PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT OR COMPLICATED AND YOU LOOK LIKE A FOOL WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY A RELEVANT PERSON'S NAME. FOR THE LOVE OF DOG, MAKE SURE YOU KNOW EVERYONE INVOLVED'S NAME AND HOW TO SAY IT BEFORE YOU GO ON THE AIR!

 I mean even the play by play guys, sure you've gotta know around 100 names of both rosters but you've got all week to learn them. Being professional means knowing what their names are and how to pronounce them properly. There used to be some idiot for Fox that was calling Steve Smith "Stephen Smith" even after dude had made the pro bowl.

Really?

Sorry had to vent for a minute.

[Mr. Scot]

Newsome's organization drafted Lamar Jackson after he was reported to have spectacularly bombed his whiteboard work at the combine.

"Inexact" for certain.

Ultimately, I think it's just one of those things that some people are better at than others. It's a skill, and some people have it while others don't. There are plenty of intelligent people who couldn't make a living off the stock market if their life depended on it. Doesn't make them less intelligent. They just don't have the skill. Same thing with scouting.

Mind you, how teams work with and develop the players they draft also has a lot to do with it. David Carr had the tools to be a good quarterback but the Texans coached him horribly and didn't protect him. Who knows what he could have been?

[1of10Charnatives]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Newsome's organization drafted Lamar Jackson after he was reported to have spectacularly bombed his whiteboard work at the combine.

"Inexact" for certain.

Ultimately, I think it's just one of those things that some people are better at than others. It's a skill, and some people have it while others don't. There are plenty of intelligent people who couldn't make a living off the stock market if their life depended on it. Doesn't make them less intelligent. They just don't have the skill. Same thing with scouting.

Mind you, how teams work with and develop the players they draft also has a lot to do with it. David Carr had the tools to be a good quarterback but the Texans coached him horribly and didn't protect him. Who knows what he could have been?

Yeah my first job out of college was as a financial advisor, helping people do things like retirement and estate planning. One thing I learned real quick is that doctors almost always know nothing about money except how to make it, and they aren't exactly letting idiots into medical school.  In Jackson's case, sounds like the thing no one could measure wound up being his determination to improve on that weakness, because his work throwing the ball looks worlds better than last season.

[BrianS]

19 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Mind you, how teams work with and develop the players they draft also has a lot to do with it. David Carr had the tools to be a good quarterback but the Texans coached him horribly and didn't protect him. Who knows what he could have been?

David Carr is a great example of a guy who had the physical tools but lacked something internal.  You can argue that he didn't get the protection he probably deserved, sure.  But that internal ability to simply be your best despite anyone and everyone else is something that's critical.  As a counterpoint to David Carr, look at Archie Manning.  The dude played on some all time horrid teams.  Never had protection, or playmakers around him or really the eye popping stats.  Yet people understand just how good he was.  He had the physical tools and the mental makeup required.

[Mr. Scot]

13 minutes ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

Yeah my first job out of college was as a financial advisor, helping people do things like retirement and estate planning. One thing I learned real quick is that doctors almost always know nothing about money except how to make it, and they aren't exactly letting idiots into medical school.  In Jackson's case, sounds like the thing no one could measure wound up being his determination to improve on that weakness, because his work throwing the ball looks worlds better than last season.

I'm hoping they coach him properly.

The problem that happens with a lot of quarterbacks that have incredible physical skills is that coaches come to rely on those and don't necessarily do everything they could to train them for the eventual day when those physical skills are diminished.

In that same vein, it makes me sad to think what could have been if it had been Norv Turner coaching Cam Newton all along rather than just following up on what Mike Shula did late in Newton's career.

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, BrianS said:

David Carr is a great example of a guy who had the physical tools but lacked something internal.  You can argue that he didn't get the protection he probably deserved, sure.  But that internal ability to simply be your best despite anyone and everyone else is something that's critical.  As a counterpoint to David Carr, look at Archie Manning.  The dude played on some all time horrid teams.  Never had protection, or playmakers around him or really the eye popping stats.  Yet people understand just how good he was.  He had the physical tools and the mental makeup required.

I know there's a general impression that Carr didn't have the right internal qualities. I'm just not sure I agree with it.

When Carr was acquired by the Panthers, I did a bunch of research on him. What I learned was that his original Texans coaches didn't even try to teach him to read defenses. They were coaching him to just throw to a certain spot on a given play.

How the hell do you not teach a professional quarterback to read defenses and expect him to succeed?

[CPF4LIFE]

15 hours ago, Shaqil915 said:

Was just watching this, couldn’t agree more. 
 

Ron Rivera is a pos doing whatever he can to keep his job. The man straight up threw away his former MVP qb away like trash to gas up Allen, in hopes of distracting everyone from his own shitty coaching. 
 

Dude doesn’t give a fug about a super bowl or being a champion, he just wants to stay an NFL head coach. He is an office politician.

AGREED. Anybody who hasnt figured out by now we are not going anywhere with Ron is just lost. He has his own agenda. 

[BrianS]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I know there's a general impression that Carr didn't have the right internal qualities. I'm just not sure I agree with it.

When Carr was acquired by the Panthers, I did a bunch of research on him. What I learned was that his original Texans coaches didn't even try to teach him to read defenses. They were coaching him to just throw to a certain spot on a given play.

How the hell do you not teach a professional quarterback to read defenses and expect him to succeed?

Interesting about the Texans coaches, but maybe that just reinforces the idea he was missing something internally?  These coaches were professionals too.  Maybe they realized he just didn't have it inside, and in an attempt to make him into something resembling a functional QB they dumbed it all down to the point of "just throw to this spot".

In todays more enlightened NFL, someone might have looked at it and said "His internal clock just isn't fast enough when he's trying to read, teach him to hit a spot".  I dunno.  David Carr has always been an interesting player topic because his physical tools were so good.

[Mr. Scot]

11 minutes ago, BrianS said:

Interesting about the Texans coaches, but maybe that just reinforces the idea he was missing something internally?  These coaches were professionals too.  Maybe they realized he just didn't have it inside, and in an attempt to make him into something resembling a functional QB they dumbed it all down to the point of "just throw to this spot".

In todays more enlightened NFL, someone might have looked at it and said "His internal clock just isn't fast enough when he's trying to read, teach him to hit a spot".  I dunno.  David Carr has always been an interesting player topic because his physical tools were so good.

Listening to Carr as an analyst now definitely makes me think he could have been better if he'd had better coaching.

For me, the prime example of a guy who had fantastic physical tools but didn't have it between the ears was Jeff George. Mentioned earlier, there was certainly a whole lot of effort put forth toward making him an NFL quarterback. It was all wasted.

Some people say Ryan Leaf, but I don't think brains was the problem there. I think the real issue was he was just an arrogant, self-absorbed a--hole so wouldn't let anybody tell him anything. Not lack of intelligence, but horrible attitude.

Manziel is probably a good example of lack of intelligence but I never really thought his physical tools were that special at the NFL level.

[BrianS]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Listening to Carr as an analyst now definitely makes me think he could have been better if he'd had better coaching.

For me, the prime example of a guy who had fantastic physical tools but didn't have it between the ears was Jeff George. Mentioned earlier, there was certainly a whole lot of effort put forth toward making him an NFL quarterback. It was all wasted.

Some people say Ryan Leaf, but I don't think brains was the problem there. I think the real issue was he was just an arrogant, self-absorbed a--hole so wouldn't let anybody tell him anything. Not lack of intelligence, but horrible attitude.

Manziel is probably a good example of lack of intelligence but I never really thought his physical tools were that special at the NFL level.

Jeff George definitely had the physical tools.  Not sure there were too many QB's of his era with an arm like he had.  I remember hearing some TV analysts talking about how JG was a guy that got coaches fired because they always saw his arm but couldn't get him to live up to the potential.

[Mr. Scot]

9 minutes ago, BrianS said:

Jeff George definitely had the physical tools.  Not sure there were too many QB's of his era with an arm like he had.  I remember hearing some TV analysts talking about how JG was a guy that got coaches fired because they always saw his arm but couldn't get him to live up to the potential.

Succeeding as a professional quarterback is hard. It's been called the toughest position to play in sports, and I don't think even that statement fully conveys just how difficult it is.

There are at least a dozen skills you need to have, and you have to be able to do them while large, fast men are running in your direction with the intent to hurt you.

Loads of the best college players at the position wash out of the NFL on an annual basis. Guys everybody expected to be stars turn into busts. It happens every year.

That we've had a guy who's done it well for so long shouldn't be lost on anybody, nor should anyone think it's going to be easy to replace him.

Unfortunately, it sounds like we're going to have to.

[SBiii]

8 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Not quite true.

The only ones that ever got serious consideration and actual coverage from The Observer were Tepper, Ben Navarro, Michael Rubin and Alan Kastenbaum. They did follow Felix Sabates' early attempts but those didn't last long.

And yes, there were people other than Tepper who were qualified, but the NFL only want to Tepper. Michael Rubin kinda got screwed over in that deal.

Absolutely true.

In fact the Observer ran this pic for months and months and months.  Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying they thought these pretenders were leading candidates, but they absolutely thought they had a legit shot --- which was never the case.

I'm well aware of who got "serious" coverage....they did an incredible disservice to the word "serious"

Tepper was the only one who had the money, and was qualified (based on the criteria the NFL was going by).

Navarro didn't have the money, and his business background would invite a lot of scrutiny & negative press.

Kestenbaum was a complete joke, a modern day John Spano.

Rubin didn't have the money, and his entourage would not work for the NFL.

It was Tepper from the git go...