Kyle Allen Has Shown Enough

[kungfoodude]

7 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

So Russell Wilson is the only QB to carry a bad oline?? Nahhh I don't think that's correct  .

 

Wilson is a good example of a mobile QB still being able to thrive without good protection(something that shouldn't be surprising if you ever saw him in college). But there are multiple ways to achieve that. Brady and Brees are both good examples of making quick decisions and getting rid of the ball quickly to offset some protection weaknesses. 

[WOW!!]

15 hours ago, Khyber53 said:

How about you list them out, along with stats and wins. I'll wait. It'll prove me correct. I picked the first ones I thought of, but please, be my guest.

I'll do 3..

Kyler Murray 

http://www.nfl.com/player/kylermurray/2562382/careerstats

17 tds 6 to 65% comp rate 2700 passing

Gardner's Minshew  is 13 and 6to 2200 passing yards ..

Dainel Jones is 19td and 10TO 2100 yards and 63% comp rate

Not to mention Josh Allen and Baker who have better numbers and I still wouldn't build around them like that...

[WOW!!]

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Wilson is a good example of a mobile QB still being able to thrive without good protection(something that shouldn't be surprising if you ever saw him in college). But there are multiple ways to achieve that. Brady and Brees are both good examples of making quick decisions and getting rid of the ball quickly to offset some protection weaknesses. 

I agree.. That was my point..

Alot of QB can succeed with great protection.. 

The ones who can find away to carry the team when things aren't perfect (which most of the time there not) are the ones you pay and build around... Other than that you have a game manager and you pray the rest of the team stays healthy...

[kungfoodude]

19 hours ago, WOW!! said:

I'd rather have Dainel jones to be honest.. And I see you only name 3 QB's when 8 or 9 were drafted the last 2 years.. How does that statistical breakdown work when you neglect to mention 6 or 7 other players?? 

Just to help you ... You might need to check the stats on the rookie or 2nd year QB for the last 5 years... And how many have stats the same as Allen and team mistakenly  build around them and now see they need another QB??

Again he has 5 more game to change the narrative..

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/daniel-jones-hasnt-figured-out-zone-coverage-yet/

[rodeo]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

Wilson is a good example of a mobile QB still being able to thrive without good protection(something that shouldn't be surprising if you ever saw him in college). But there are multiple ways to achieve that. Brady and Brees are both good examples of making quick decisions and getting rid of the ball quickly to offset some protection weaknesses. 

this is in no small part to receivers who were trained up on how to play with a mobile qb. i'm sure everyone has seen russell scramble and throw up a wounded duck lob off his back foot, only for his receivers to adjust and come down with it miraculously. that's because they were taught how to do that by their OC and position staff.

in carolina our receivers run their route and if you throw the ball when they're not exactly ready it'll bounce off the back of their helmet into a defender's hand. i can't honestly ever remember seeing one of Cam's receivers break off their route and improvise into space for him to throw on the run.

[mav1234]

1 hour ago, WOW!! said:

I'll do 3..

Kyler Murray 

http://www.nfl.com/player/kylermurray/2562382/careerstats

17 tds 6 to 65% comp rate 2700 passing

Gardner's Minshew  is 13 and 6to 2200 passing yards ..

Dainel Jones is 19td and 10TO 2100 yards and 63% comp rate

Not to mention Josh Allen and Baker who have better numbers and I still wouldn't build around them like that...

Not to say that Kyle Allen will stack up to first round picks - or came-out-of-nowhere-Gardner Minshew - and I do not think Allen should be "built around" now, but I also think that he is performing as well or better than a lot of young QBs, some of whom are being built around (Minshew isn't - his fumble problems were so severe he was benched)...

Minshew: 61.2% comp rate, 13 TDs, 4 INTs, 11 fumbles, 7 fumbles lost, 9 games started

Jones: 62.5% comp rate, 19 total TDs (2 rushing), 8 INTs, 14 fumbles, 10 lost, 10 games started

Kyle Allen (career, makes about the same # of games as Jones, Murray, etc): 62.1% comp rate, 16 total TDs (1 rushing), 9 INTs, 8 fumbles, 5 lost, 10 games started

Kyler Murray: 64.6% comp rate, 17 total TDs (3 rushing), 5 INTs, 2 fumbles, 0 lost, 11 games started

Not even going to mention Haskins, heh.

So no, I don't think we should build around Allen... but I have been pleasantly surprised with our young backup... hopefully he can build on his personal success against New Orleans in a way that brings about a win against the Redskins.

That, and avoid fuging turnovers, christ.

[kungfoodude]

34 minutes ago, rodeo said:

this is in no small part to receivers who were trained up on how to play with a mobile qb. i'm sure everyone has seen russell scramble and throw up a wounded duck lob off his back foot, only for his receivers to adjust and come down with it miraculously. that's because they were taught how to do that by their OC and position staff.

in carolina our receivers run their route and if you throw the ball when they're not exactly ready it'll bounce off the back of their helmet into a defender's hand. i can't honestly ever remember seeing one of Cam's receivers break off their route and improvise into space for him to throw on the run.

Yeah, you won't see many wounded duck Wilson throws. He just has that McNabb like ability to scramble that makes coverage extremely difficult. You can only ask DB's to cover so long.

[WOW!!]

2 hours ago, mav1234 said:

Not to say that Kyle Allen will stack up to first round picks - or came-out-of-nowhere-Gardner Minshew - and I do not think Allen should be "built around" now, but I also think that he is performing as well or better than a lot of young QBs, some of whom are being built around (Minshew isn't - his fumble problems were so severe he was benched)...

Minshew: 61.2% comp rate, 13 TDs, 4 INTs, 11 fumbles, 7 fumbles lost, 9 games started

Jones: 62.5% comp rate, 19 total TDs (2 rushing), 8 INTs, 14 fumbles, 10 lost, 10 games started

Kyle Allen (career, makes about the same # of games as Jones, Murray, etc): 62.1% comp rate, 16 total TDs (1 rushing), 9 INTs, 8 fumbles, 5 lost, 10 games started

Kyler Murray: 64.6% comp rate, 17 total TDs (3 rushing), 5 INTs, 2 fumbles, 0 lost, 11 games started

Not even going to mention Haskins, heh.

So no, I don't think we should build around Allen... but I have been pleasantly surprised with our young backup... hopefully he can build on his personal success against New Orleans in a way that brings about a win against the Redskins.

That, and avoid fuging turnovers, christ.

No not going mention Haskins.. Since I wouldn't build around him either and he has only played 2 or 3 games?? I thought the only playing 2 or 3 games kinda took him out of discussion anyway..

I also love how you added that practice game last year to boost Allen's numbers.. That makes this breakdown really relevant..lol

[WOW!!]

3 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/daniel-jones-hasnt-figured-out-zone-coverage-yet/

I would still build around him before Allen just of statics.. Add in context and it isn't even close..

[mav1234]

7 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

I also love how you added that practice game last year to boost Allen's numbers.. That makes this breakdown really relevant..lol

as if neglecting more than a half dozen turnovers other young QBs makes a relevant comparison?

we going to go through quality of opponents then? lol, come on.  obviously no direct comparison is equal, but at least when comparing all of their starts, Kyle Allen doesn't look terrible... because he isn't.  He's a decent backup.  Is he more?  Doubtful, but never know.

Allen isn't hot poo so far, but luckily for us we didn't need to drop a first round pick on him so if things don't work out with him, oh well.

[WOW!!]

59 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

as if neglecting more than a half dozen turnovers other young QBs makes a relevant comparison?

we going to go through quality of opponents then? lol, come on.  obviously no direct comparison is equal, but at least when comparing all of their starts, Kyle Allen doesn't look terrible... because he isn't.  He's a decent backup.  Is he more?  Doubtful, but never know.

Allen isn't hot poo so far, but luckily for us we didn't need to drop a first round pick on him so if things don't work out with him, oh well.

I said this exact thing already.. His stats right now say he's a backup.. He has 5 more games to change the narrative..

[raz]

9 hours ago, WOW!! said:

I agree.. That was my point..

Alot of QB can succeed with great protection.. 

The ones who can find away to carry the team when things aren't perfect (which most of the time there not) are the ones you pay and build around... Other than that you have a game manager and you pray the rest of the team stays healthy...

this isn't true either.  brady is having a down year and its all o-line.   goff is having a crap year - difference between this year and last year - oline.    they talk about all kindsa stuff on the tv because saying bad oline over and over won't get you to watch.  it draws a lot more viewers trashing qb's than it does to just explain reality.  getting the ball out quick helps but if someone is in your lap when you hit your back foot to throw its a problem.   the reality is no one has figured out mcvay, he doesn't suddenly suck as a coach -  gurley isn't awful - their oline sucks.   our oline is much much worse.   

[micnificent28]

Allen is a extremely hard evaluation. I think it's hard to get a good reading on how good he is because he isn't being asked to win it most of the time. A large portion of the load and probably rightfully so is being thrown at CMC. Either on the ground or in the air the are putting it in his hands and he is making them look right most of the time.

I will say this.. in games where cmc has been neutralized, he has looked subpar.. a lot of Allen's touchdown are check downs to cmc and such or designed passes. When the game is on the line 4th and we need it after cmc has been stuffed he hasn't come through. Its important to evaluate the situation and cause of success and failure beyond just the stats and oh hes winning or he through 3 touchdowns no picks.

[kungfoodude]

7 hours ago, WOW!! said:

I would still build around him before Allen just of statics.. Add in context and it isn't even close..

I am not a big fan of Jones. He may have the overall skill set but I just don't think he will put it together. He just naturally gets a bump because everyone thinks Cutcliffe is a QB whisperer. 

I'd definitely rather have Allen. He's far cheaper and in the case that he didn't work out, he's way easier to change course on than a top 15 pick.