SB nation article says you are stupid if you think there's a true QB controversy

[1of10Charnatives]

7 minutes ago, PhillyB said:

not literally in spite of, but kyle is afforded the ability to take safe throws by his stellar defense

What I pointed out is that in spite of is prejudicial in describing this imo, as it directly implies something actively negative, rather than simply not being dominant.

[Moo Daeng]

37 minutes ago, Moo Daeng said:

All these people lashing out because of the success with Allen are just scared I suppose. This is purely psychological because it sure isnt rational.

I mean if you want Cam to continue to be the starter fine. Write the team a letter but don't get upset with people who are happy to be winning and realize paying Newton big money for another contract is at least a conversation worth having. Nobody here makes the decision so what's the point of calling anyone stupid and the daily talking points? And while there may be racist motivations with some, race has nothing to do with the actual debate.

[MHS831]

29 minutes ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

Agreed, but I think the percentage of people saying ship Cam off is extremely low. What I see right now is some people saying Allen might be more than just a backup, and people taking a reactionary response of "DON"T GET RID OF CAM!" The team is in a true dilemma because it needs to evaluate both players extensively, but only has one football team and only one qb can play at a time. Given Cam's stature as the face of the franchise and the size of his contract, I think ultimately you have to give priority to evaluating him, but people have at least two legitimate concerns about this:

1. No matter how good Cam looks when he comes back, his age and injury history mean we can never be 100% certain he'll be able to perform long term, particularly if he continues to run, so it's a gamble if we keep him and extend him.

2. People are worried that if he comes back and plays poorly it will tank our playoff chances this season with the challenging schedule lying ahead. I am personally less concerned about this because A) There's no guarantee Allen would be able to get us to the playoffs either and B) I view the issue of evaluating these two qb's as being of long term importance and supersedes just making the playoffs this year, but that's just my two cents.

Good post.  People need to polarize an issue to debate it.  There is more unknown and gray area than anything else.

[jfra78]

11 minutes ago, PhillyB said:

efficiency and protecting the ball is great! franchise QBs do more than that though, they are a threat to break a game every time they touch the ball.

kyle allen is very efficient, well liked, and a great guy to step in and run things. not one thing about him screams game breaker.

for those invariably responded "but we don't know if he is yet!" i would say you've neutered your case to replace cam 

That throw where he got away from Watt was special and was a make or break moment.  He has it in him, it's just he hasn't needed to use it.  I agree Cam IS a more talented QB when he can do all the things that make him great.  Will we see that again?  No one knows.  

[kaw_liga]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-gameday-prime/0ap3000001065649/Prime-says-Panthers-shouldn-t-give-QB-role-back-to-Cam-Newton

[1of10Charnatives]

13 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

see this is what im talking about. the conversation seamlessly shifts from "kyle allen led this team to victory" to "oh please explain how allen's play actively worked against the team's success"

again, completely insulated from criticism

A) I never claimed Allen led the team to victory, so you are strawmanning me with that argument. Please stop. 

B) YOU used the phrase, not I. My criticism is that the phrase is prejudicial. You aren't answering the criticism but attempting to deflect by claiming others are shifting focus while you engage in focus shifting yourself.

At this point, who is attempting to insulate themselves from criticism again?

[Moo Daeng]

20 minutes ago, PhillyB said:

efficiency and protecting the ball is great! franchise QBs do more than that though, they are a threat to break a game every time they touch the ball.

kyle allen is very efficient, well liked, and a great guy to step in and run things. not one thing about him screams game breaker.

for those invariably responded "but we don't know if he is yet!" i would say you've neutered your case to replace cam newton

Unfortunately Newton breaks games both for and against us.

Dammit Jake! became Dammit Cam!

[twylyght]

Taking the posters on this thread, it is pretty plain that we all believe that 2015 Cam was something was surreal from the QB position.  No one can or ever will take that away from Cam, nor should they.

The question NOW is what can a 2019 Cam do?  How healthy is he?  How much did the shoulder affect his accuracy?  What can we surmise is the Cam that we will get, not only this year, but in the years to come?

Taking the physicality away from this part of the discussion (to be fair, it is a key part of what makes Cam the defensive planning nightmare he was for DCs in years past), let's look at what the eyeball test shows us: 

Since KA has taken over, how has time management fared?  To my eyes, it took a quantum leap from the outset.  The single biggest anger bomb that hit me this year is when we took a delay of game penalty AFTER we took a time out.  Under ZERO circumstances should any QB have EVER let this happen.  This is purely a mental discipline breakdown of epic proportions.  In retrospect it is a tell on how the offense as a whole was breaking from the top down from the mental part of the game.  Since KA took over, these instantly cleared up.  4 games is enough to demonstrate a trend.

Since KA took over, we've seen steady improvement on the turnovers in the fumble arena.  @Zod called it (I refuse to call him Jeremy).  A fixable issue has been steadily getting better.  I have seen two passes that should have been picked off, but that still puts KA on a severely upward trajectory with respect to game management.  

KA throws a better ball.  He hits the guys in stride with better accuracy as only his guys can catch it.  He's chucked some serious dimes that are elite level throws with his chances.  He hasn't done enough on a consistent basis to crown him Drew Brees, but people would be dead-on retarded to ignore some of what he's done on that front.

KA makes faster decisions from the snap.  This may be the single biggest help to the OLine outside of CMC putting up all-world numbers.  It is absolutely a legit argument to make that Cam needs more time and protection to let his deeper routes develop.  However, a QB HAS to make the pre-snap read and understand his protection's weaknesses to make the best decisions and keep the chains moving.  This may also be the single biggest contributor to Cam shortening his career.  As freakish as Cam is as an athlete, he CANNOT continue to take this kind of punishment.  It is a miracle of genetics and conditioning that Cam has lasted as long as he has.

We have a stretch of games coming up that can show us exactly who and what these guys are.  It's not a popular opinion, but waiting and seeing will be ultimate teller of what KA is.  I think we have enough of a history to know what Cam is from a game management standpoint.  He's much more in the mold of a gunslinger that will let you win or lose spectacularly.  We'd obviously love to have 2015 superstar Cam on the field, but we'd be foolish to expect that kind of performance to come back with the punishment he's taken.

[raz]

35 minutes ago, ncfan said:

Watched it, and rewatched it on game passes

 

Cam isnt completing those pct #s etc with a "sore shoulder etc etc"

And everyone on the this board didnt mention that

They were all talking about

1. How great Norv is and how much better was

2. How Cam was putting better #s than his MVP season 

3. How the OL is Trash with Clark and was going to get Cam killed (they did vs the Steelers)

4. How terrible the D was. Rivera agreed with the fans, took over playcalling, and went to a new scheme this off season

 

 

Welcome ti the huddle

also he wasn't practicing because of his shoulder.  he was hurt.  he's admitted it.   we were also complaining non-stop about clock management even in those wins, which it turns out is on cam.   he's gotta clean that up too.  got to.  not sure why you're on the hill of he didn't play all his games last year hurt when he said the 1st procedure didn't fix it.

[rico6]

58 minutes ago, ARSEN said:

When Delhomme era came to an end people were in denial.  This place was so toxic.

Lol no it wasn’t. People were firmly over Jake when he flamed out against Philly in ‘09. 

[jfra78]

3 minutes ago, kaw_liga said:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-gameday-prime/0ap3000001065649/Prime-says-Panthers-shouldn-t-give-QB-role-back-to-Cam-Newton

A lot of media folk are saying this.  But if Cam is truly healthy enough to do everything he needs to to win, they will start him. And they should

[Waldo]

39 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

Cam vs. Allen, Cam wins.  But (as you state) there are unknowns that need to be known.  That is the basis for this debate--it is hard to argue against 9 TDs and O interceptions and 5 wins vs. 0 losses (4 road wins).  Having said that, we know Cam has the better skill set. 

In 2015, after 9 games, Cam's completion percentage was 56.3%. The Panthers were 9-0.  His legs kept a pass rusher frozen, a pass defender in the box.  Without the need to do either, the defense can pressure Cam; he has never been great at reading defenses.  He is often late in seeing the open WR and since timing is important, he tends to add mustard to the throw to make up for the delay. He holds the ball too long to buy time.  That makes him prone to injury.  When he hurt his foot in a preseason game, he was trying to make a play.  Why?  It is so hard to dim the fire in the heater--he has one speed.  Can he learn to protect what he has left? 

In 2015, Cam was 25-26.  He could overcome a lot with his athleticism.  What can 31-year old Cam do? 57% is not going to get the job done, but he has been better with Norv.  I am just worried that he is done.  Glad we have an option---

Well put and I am still concerned plenty about both. The hype around Allen and the unknown fact of where Cam is actually in his career. I don't know how any of it will go but I would like to see Cam get out there and give it a go and see what he has left. A functional Cam is just flat better than Allen. I think Igo just said in another thread that we could go deep with Cam in the playoffs and Allen could get us to the playoffs. That sums up how I view this situation. 

[TheRumGone]

24 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

in the game thread posters were critical of wright for not catching this ball lol. poor kyle allen being let down by his teammates yet again

Yeah that throw to wright was horrible. Kyle ran up to him immediately and pointed to his chest saying I fuged up.

[Ja Rhule]

3 minutes ago, rico6 said:

Lol no it wasn’t. People were firmly over Jake when he flamed out against Philly in ‘09. 

I guess you were either not a member of this board or have a bad memory.