SB nation article says you are stupid if you think there's a true QB controversy

[onmyown]

7 hours ago, Saca312 said:

tbh he's always been a pocket passer since 2011. just because QB designed runs exists doesn't mean when he throws, he literally sits in the pocket and delivers like textbook pocket passers do.

only difference is more competent playcalling + short options in CMC, Moore, etc. to make plays and high percentage throws. back then, he only had vertical intermediate-deep options as reliable targets and little to no checkdown options at all.

I mean that’s pretty much saying all qbs are pocket passers. I don’t think you’re understanding the term. There is a difference saying someone can throw from the pocket and labeling a QB as a pocket passer.

Everyone’s definitions will be different but in my opinion a pocket passer is someone is won’t do much on the ground. P Manning, Brady, brees etc. They are going to live or die, win or lose in that pocket. They have superior accuracy and field reading abilities.

Then you have scramblers/mobile qbs like Wilson, Mahomes, Rodgers. They’ll take off every now and then but they won’t take over a game with their legs and while the defense will expect elusiveness they’re not going to spy them every play or gameplan around the running game. Superior Elusiveness and decent field vision superior scrambling, decent legs to run.

Then there are the rare dual threat qbs...Vick, Cunningham, Steve Young. These guys will take over a game with their legs. They have more designed run plays than any other qbs. Decent field vision, superior downfield running and running field vision. Other teams will have to gameplan against their run threat and they will have spies on them the whole game.

So in the sense the term pocket passer is suppose to be used, no Cam is not at all a pocket passer. Can he pass from the pocket? Yes. But his best attributes are the dual threat. If he was a pocket passer other teams would not gameplan around his legs. They would not spy on him the whole game, and lastly he would not have broken rushing records at the QB position and rush for 600-800 yards a season. Pocket passers do not have those stats or abilities.

Its not a fault to not be a conventional pocket passer, in fact it’s what makes him so special and superior.

Unfortunately it’s also led to injuries and it may not be wise to continue playing him as such that makes him special and so the question is can he transform from a dual threat to a pocket passer or scrambler and be just as effective that way?

 I think he can but it is too early to tell, especially with injuries clouding progress. But to say he’s been a pocket passer since 2011 isn’t really what the term means. 

 

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, Bronn said:

The difference, that you still cannot distinguish apparently, is that Steve Smith isn't posting here about Republican/borderline racist things when he's not put on the spot about our QB situation in front of the cameras.

Also, Steve Smith has likely done way more than anyone posting in these forums for the Carolina Panthers, the community of Charlotte, and people below him on the societal hierarchy. That means he 99% isn't a Republican/racist.

How convenient of you to prop him up as some sort of ethical standard now, though, as there are plenty on the wrong side of the Kyle vs. Cam argument that also make a villain Smith when given the chance.

Oh, so you're prejudiced against Republicans and conservatives.

Now I understand.

[Mr. Scot]

24 minutes ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

How am I getting it wrong, for the people who are actually being logical I have no quarrels with, my post was for the ones who have seen enough from Allen to say he’s the future and cam’s done 

if they are trolling so be it but there’s quite a few regular posters who believe this notion as well 

As far as cam’s health, he’s no more injured than most the qbs in the league, however if we start him when a 100% healthy and he either bombs his 3-4 starts or gets injured than it’s easier to move on from him and begin the Kyle Allen era

patience is all that’s needed 

I question whether you're able (or even trying) to distinguish between who's serious and who's trolling, especially when your responses read like you're assuming everybody has one point of view.

[Mr. Scot]

26 minutes ago, jtm said:

Brilliant perspective and blows my mind why most can't get this.  We as fans, just want the Panthers to win.  

It's really not that hard to understand... unless you're not that bright. 

(or you're not trying because it doesn't fit your narrative)

[Bronn]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Oh, so you're prejudiced against Republicans and conservatives.

Now I understand.

Yes, because the tenets of their belief system lead them to be capitalist, racist pigs most of the time.

[Bronn]

Seriously guys, it isn't hard to understand where Mr. Scot is coming from on this.
 

 

[Cpt slay a ho]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I question whether you're able (or even trying) to distinguish between who's serious and who's trolling, especially when your responses read like you're assuming everybody has one point of view.

How did you read”for the camp that....” and concluded I’m referring to everyone is beyond me 

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, Bronn said:

Yes, because the tenets of their belief system lead them to be capitalist, racist pigs most of the time.

Kudos for admitting your failings.

[onmyown]

6 minutes ago, Bronn said:

Seriously guys, it isn't hard to understand where Mr. Scot is coming from on this.
 

 

That thread was actually an enjoyable, humorous read even for the topic....thanks for that

 

man that really shows the huddle sure has gone to poo.

[Bronn]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Kudos for pointing out my failings.

FIFY

[CRA]

21 minutes ago, Bronn said:

The difference, that you still cannot distinguish apparently, is that Steve Smith isn't posting here about Republican/borderline racist things when he's not put on the spot about our QB situation in front of the cameras.

Also, Steve Smith has likely done way more than anyone posting in these forums for the Carolina Panthers, the community of Charlotte, and people below him on the societal hierarchy. That means he 99% isn't a Republican/racist.

How convenient of you to prop him up as some sort of ethical standard now, though, as there are plenty on the wrong side of the Kyle vs. Cam argument that also make a villain Smith when given the chance.

don't get it twisted, 89 playing the let's make good TV game now too.  

 

 

[Mr. Scot]

19 minutes ago, onmyown said:

That thread was actually an enjoyable, humorous read even for the topic....thanks for that

man that really shows the huddle sure has gone to poo.

I whiffed pretty badly on Josh Freeman. Genuinely thought he was gonna be great. "Potential franchise"? Yikes.

Had high hopes for Pat White too (admitted WVU Homer) but he acted like an idiot and ruined his own chances.

Really really wish the Panthers would have targeted Steve McNair in the 95 draft rather than Kerry Collins. Boy, would that decision have changed Panthers history..

Anyway, here's the meat of it...

Quote

THE PRESENT (THE KNOWN):

Michael Vick - awful passer; used to be a great runner, now iffy; dumb as a brick; horrible character; league status is always hanging by a thread because of his stupid off-field actions; overall - not even worth looking at, arguably the worst black QB in the league right now; I'd take a flyer on Josh Johnson before I'd take Vick

Vince Young - good runner; improved as a passer last year; showed he could lead the team but only got so far; character issues, but nowhere near the level of Vick; overall - jury's still out, could turn out to be what Vick was supposed to be, or might just wind up being yet another run-first college QB who couldn't make the grade in the pros, the coming season will be an important one

Donovan McNabb - good runner; decent passer, but overrated because he's always played in a west coast system; inconsistent, can look like a hall-of-famer one game and a washout the next; injured more than his fair share; diva attitude; chokes in big games; has been trying to prove that he's not a run-first QB ever since Warren Sapp called him "a runningback who passes" and has cost his team some games because of it; overall - very good but nowhere near as good as the hype around him

Jason Campbell - decent runner, so-so passer; has flashed ability at times and has been the victim of continual offensive changes and horrible management on the part of the Redskins; one of those guys that people tend to think might be better elsewhere, but after all this time he might be ruined; overall - the black version of David Carr, maybe he could have been something special had things gone differently, but I think it's too late now (and in fairness, that's not all his fault)

Byron Leftwich - not very athletic, but very smart and incredibly determined; slow throwing motion as a passer but decent accuracy; very good character; the game he played on a bum leg in college is still one of the most incredible things I've ever seen; solid and serviceable with the right guys around him; overall - good, and might have a chance this season to succeed with the Steelers and thereby show that Roethlisberger is overrated

David Garrard - decent runner; good passer; good character; easily the best leader the Jags have had since Mark Brunell; largely carried the team in a playoff win against the Steelers a few years back, but the Jags don't seem to value him as much as I think they should; overall - a very good quarterback playing for a bad team that's been poorly coached for a while (sorry, Del Rio fans), probably the best black QB in the league at the moment, though Buc fans might argue

THE FUTURE (THE LARGELY UNKNOWN):

Josh Freeman - good runner; good passer, at least until you get to the red zone; looked great for a lot of his rookie year but needs coaching on his decision making; overall, if he gets the right coaching, he has the potential to be the kind of franchise QB the Bucs need

Troy Smith - good runner, good passer in college; got a lot of benfit from the fact that Jim Tressel resisted the urge to just use his athleticism and actually taught him to be a pocket passer; biggest knock is his height (only 6'0); was thought to be the heir apparent in Baltimore but then the ravens drafted Joe Flacco; expressed his wish for a trade this season but the Ravens said no way; overall - still unknown at the pro level; unlikely he'll ever move up the depth chart in Baltimore so his best hope is to get his wish and be shipped elsewhere, but what incentive do the Ravens have to do that unless someone makes them an outlandish offer?

Pat White - great runner, so-so passer in college until his senior year when Bill Stewart took over from Rich Rodriguez; only QB in college history to win Bowl games all four years of his career; hurt himself come draft time by refusing to consider a position switch; overall - right now considered a wildcat/gadget play QB, needs more coaching to become a true passer, up to the Dolphins whether or not he gets that

THE PAST (THE BEST KNOWN):

Randall Cunningham - was Michael Vick without the stupidity and the character problems, Buddy Ryan was smart enough to build the offense around him rather than try to adapt him to a conventional offense; still, he wasn't as great as his hype, but he was better than Vick

Warren Moon - played in some very QB friendly systems (especially the run and shoot) but was the real deal; never played on a good enough team to win a Super Bowl, but probably could have; he was what Donovan McNabb thinks he is

Steve McNair - easily the best black QB in recent memory; could run, could pass; life ended tragically; how much better might the Panthers had been if they had gone for him over Kerry Collins

Kordell Stewart - best remembered for the "Slash' role; loads of hype from his athleticism, but really only so-so as a passer; overall - Cowher stuck with him way too long as a starter

Doug Williams - started out with the Bucs when they were still lousy; later went to the USFL and then the Redskins; under Joe Gibbs, became the only black QB to win a Super Bowl as a starter, and his performance in that game was lights out; injuries did him in the next year; overall - the most successful of the historic black QBs because of the ring, but I'd still call McNair the best

Rodney Peete - decent runner, became a solid passer; probably would have been more successful as a starter had he not played for the Lions (where Wayne Fontes pretty much shuffled starters on an almost weekly basis); was solid when healthy in his year as the Panthers starter, but age caught up to him the next year; overall - exactly what we needed in 2002, I sometimes wonder how different things would have been if Father Time had given him just one more good year

THE OTHERS:

Okay, so I got castigated for not including some guys in the first draft. Sue me. I wrote it all from memory and didn't have time to fix it before I had to go to work. Now, is this list exhaustive? No. there are current guys left off (like Josh Johnson) and a fair number of historic guys not mentioned. Why? Because to be perfectly frank, I don't consider guys like Akili Smith, Jeff Blake, Vince Evans, Adrian McPherson and Aaron Brooks historically significant enough to put in the company of the guys I did mention. yeah, some of them had their good points (especially Blake) but are they equal to guys like McNair, Moon, Williams and Cunningham? Truthfully, Stewart and Peete aren't either, but Stewart is pretty well known and Peete...do I really need to explain why he was included?

[raz]

as a socialist i'd like to say:  bronn, maybe you should take a look at what your belief system is turning you into.   i got a clue for you, its not turning you into anything.  the ugliness thats coming out of you is from hooks you wanted to bite.    from 'takes' you wanted to swallow.   you just had to trade a little bit of your humanity for them.  how's that food you swallowed making you feel?    

[nickzz]

i don't think you can be certain if a #1 overall draft pick is a franchise QB after 5 games, let alone an UDFA.

 

but he has looked solid and he's only 23 so there is potential to grow.