Should I Listen to Bill, or Todd Bowles the DC We Destroyed in 2015

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, rayzor said:

I think Allen is an ok QB and a decent fit for the system. I don't think he's a star. Cam was a guy you build a team around (that we should have done a better job of) because of the skillset he brings. Allen is a guy you plug into a system and hope he does well enough.

I am not, nor have I said, he's bad. I'm just not ready to crown him. As I've said before, he seems like a good enough game manager, but not much more than that. 

He's a good story, but I don't see him as a guy you can put the team on his back the way that Cam and Jake did. At least not yet I don't.

There was a time when you didn't see those guys as that thing either.

Heck, there was a time when the idea of starting a sixth round pick over a guy who was taken number one overall was considered absolute insanity.

Kinda worked, though...

As to the story here, key phrase: Cam was

Everybody knows what he was, but the most important issue right now is what Cam is.

One thing I think you can say with certainty; he's not that guy you watched in 2015 anymore. That guy is gone, and he's not coming back.

Best case scenario is likely for him to be the guy that started the first eight games of the 2018 season. But can we even guarantee that he's still that guy? We worked under that assumption for the better part of the preseason this year, but it didn't turn out to be true.

Bottom Line: Making future decisions based on a comparison between a guy who's started five games in his entire career and a guy who won an MVP four years ago with four years of experience under his belt at the time is kinda silly.

You have to look somewhat at who they are now, but more so who you believe they're going to be in the future.

And on that front, two things...

Believing that a guy who's on the wrong side of 30 and has been banged up for the better part of four years now is suddenly going to find a Fountain of Youth is... well, optimistic.

On the flipside, assuming a young guy just stays exactly where he is now  considering that1) young guys tend to improve with experience and 2) you can actually see improvement in Allen from his first game to now isn't exactly pessimistic, it's more just plain dumb.

And yet both of those things are the crux of what a lot of people are trying to argue right now.

[pantherclaw]

#SetfreexX

What is your agenda here?

[ickmule]

1 hour ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

Kyle Allen is a better decision maker after 5 NFL starts than Cam Newton is after 8 full seasons in the NFL.  Nuff said.

I’ve said since Cam was drafted he wasn’t a good decision maker on the field.  He keeps proving me right.   

[t96]

1 hour ago, mc52beast said:

Oh you mean after Watt destroyed his shoulder and Ron let him keep playing? How about we look at what he did the first half when we were 6-2 and people we’re talking about how great he was playing... but of course if you’re a Cam hater you won’t go there.

The Cam we have had this season so far has shown to be the Cam from the second half of last year, not the first half.

[DeAngelo Beason]

Just now, t96 said:

The Cam we have had this season so far has shown to be the Cam from the second half of last year, not the first half.

Exactly.  No one wants to admit it.  The Cam from the first 8 weeks of last season is gone.  He doesn't exist anymore.  I will eat all the crow in the world if proven wrong.

[Peppers90 NC]

Listen to whoever tells you what you want to hear

[Mr. Scot]

8 minutes ago, Peppers90 NC said:

Listen to whoever tells you what you want to hear

Pretty much.

Look guys, you can go out and find any analysis you want. Hell, if you're motivated, you can find anybody who ever said anything positive about Cam Newton or anything negative about Kyle Allen and post all of it here.

It doesn't mean sh-t.

What's going to happen is going to happen regardless of how badly you want it to or don't want it to.

Maybe Cam Newton will return to form. Maybe Kyle Allen will take over from here. Maybe something crazy will happen and it'll be Will Grier's job from now on. Maybe we'll go into next year ready to draft the quarterback of the future.

Whatever the future holds, all the screaming, fist pounding, holding your breath till you turn blue, denial and wishful thinking isn't going to stop it.

Feel free to do all that stuff and more if you want, just do it with the understanding that it's not going to change anything.

[RelaxImaPro]

I'm assuming you're talking about when Todd Bowles was DC of the Cardinals?  Todd Bowles was already HC of the Jets in 2015, which we didn't play that year.

[Bartin]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

I mean facts do matter...not sure you really remember that game since you are pimping it as Cam owning Bowles.

Cam completed 39% of his passes for 168 yards, no passing TDs.  3 sacks and a fumble.  His worst game of the season.  He did add 28 yards on the ground and a score though. 

Jets had our O figured out and stopped.   

Cam’s career stats against Todd Bowles are not very good.

In 4 games(2012 vs Eagles, 2013 vs Cards, 2014 WC vs Cards, 2017 vs Jets):

93/178, 52%, 980 yards, 4 TD, 4 INT

34 rushes, 140 yards, 4 TD, 3 fumbles

I’m not even going to include the week 2 game against the Bucs this year since he was clearly injured.

[rayzor]

6 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

There was a time when you didn't see those guys as that thing either.

Heck, there was a time when the idea of starting a sixth round pick over a guy who was taken number one overall was considered absolute insanity.

Kinda worked, though...

As to the story here, key phrase: Cam was

Everybody knows what he was, but the most important issue right now is what Cam is.

One thing I think you can say with certainty; he's not that guy you watched in 2015 anymore. That guy is gone, and he's not coming back.

Best case scenario is likely for him to be the guy that started the first eight games of the 2018 season. But can we even guarantee that he's still that guy? We worked under that assumption for the better part of the preseason this year, but it didn't turn out to be true.

Bottom Line: Making future decisions based on a comparison between a guy who's started five games in his entire career and a guy who won an MVP four years ago with four years of experience under his belt at the time is kinda silly.

You have to look somewhat at who they are now, but more so who you believe they're going to be in the future.

And on that front, two things...

Believing that a guy who's on the wrong side of 30 and has been banged up for the better part of four years now is suddenly going to find a Fountain of Youth is... well, optimistic.

On the flipside, assuming a young guy just stays exactly where he is now  considering that1) young guys tend to improve with experience and 2) you can actually see improvement in Allen from his first game to now isn't exactly pessimistic, it's more just plain dumb.

And yet both of those things are the crux of what a lot of people are trying to argue right now.

I think that's fine. I want to see what both guys have to offer. I know we probably won't see the same old Cam, but if we can see the Cam we saw last year before his shoulder buggered out...I think that's the better option.

If we don't then I want to see more of Allen. If....and I mean if...Cam is essentially done and Allen can keep it up, I think he's worth a long term shot. 

I'm just going to withhold my enthusiasm for a while. I like what he's doing, I'm just not completely sold on him long term yet.