[ALL-22] AMA and thoughts - Rewatch Tampa Bay @ Carolina

[PantherBrew]

I wanted to go back and see how the Bucs game went and to see if there are any insights to be gained for the upcoming game.

 

Some thoughts: OFFENSE

• Cam was waaaay better than I remember. He missed some throws, sure, but he made some very big ones and had us in a position to win the game at the end. Most of his struggles were because of two people, Shaq Barrett and Daryl Williams (More on him in a minute). I still believe Cam should not play until he can run on 3rd and 2. Thats the difference between him being an average passer and the MVP.

• The offensive line was very bad. Daryl Williams played worse than any Kalil game I can remember. Yes, there were 3 sacks, but he also gave up several hits. One cost us a wide-open TD chance for Samuel. He needs to never play LT again. (He is much better at guard and should stay until turner returns. We did a shitty job staying on blocks, just lazily came off of them while the play was still going.

  • Williams was awful, really no other way to put it.

    • GVR, solid

    • Paridis struggles a bit, but it was also put into rough spots (for example, we ask him to reach block a nose tackle, when the ball was going into B gap). Really no center should be asked to do this. This is on Norv and Cam. He got much better in the Jax game.

    • Turner looked very slow overall, still had the power, but wasn't great.

    • Moton was fine, came off a couple of blocks too soon.

• This was probably one of Norv's worst games, I bet even he would tell you that. Our running game sucked and had no rhythm. We were facing press cover 1 most of the game, and I think it took til the Jags game on how to combat that. They bullied our receivers all game, they played press man Cover 1 and we got very little separation, which makes for difficult throws. We constantly ran to sides where we were outnumbered. the three straight passes inside the 10 was not great.  We have to come up with a better short yardage strategy.  

• I think we may be better off without Manhertz because he became a wasted player and really gave any of our play calls.

Some thoughts: DEFENSE

• Really good game overall. We were veryyyy vanilla, looked like preseason. Basically ran 3 coverages. Very good in the secondary. Honestly the weakest link this game was D. Jackson. His technique sucked. If you are small, you need to be a technically sound when going against good receivers. C. Godwin made him look foolish sometimes. I also think he is not good in off-man because of his size. I think I'd rather him play press and play the ball.

• KK was obviously hurt. He was getting dominated on down blocks and not fighting the pressure.

• McCoy, Poe both had really good games.

• Cam and Shaq are monsters. Just flat out.

• This is the most I have seen a team force our corners to be run players. And they mainly attacked Jackson's side. Overall with mixed results. Jackson made some good plays, but also looked tentative in other plays. They are going to keep going with it until we stop it consistently.

• We need Cockrell in the nickel spot.

• Jermaine Carter junior is terrible, I noticed several times in this game and the Jax game that teams target him. He is just too slow and doesnt react quick enough. He was good at MLB in the 4-3, but he needs to be replaced.

Anyways. AMA.

[Khyber53]

Good piece there. I think they were hoping Manhertz would help cover for Williams' deficiencies. I think we've found that the answers at LT are quite possibly on the roster. Here's hoping Little comes back soon and that Daley keeps developing.

Yeah, GVR is a solid guard. He moves well and is the best pulling guard on the team.

Honestly, with KK and Darrel, I think we may have had some addition by subtraction as their replacements seem to have shown some serious upside (is that really you Big Vern? We thought you'd been turned into a toad or something, man).

Jackson is young and he's going to have some games like that. He's still at that stage of his career where the physical talents are what he is relying upon more than experience and technique. He seems like a guy that can make the leap, though. And Cockrell, he's certainly been pretty good.

 

 

[PantherBrew]

2 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Good piece there. I think they were hoping Manhertz would help cover for Williams' deficiencies. I think we've found that the answers at LT are quite possibly on the roster. Here's hoping Little comes back soon and that Daley keeps developing.

Yeah, GVR is a solid guard. He moves well and is the best pulling guard on the team.

Honestly, with KK and Darrel, I think we may have had some addition by subtraction as their replacements seem to have shown some serious upside (is that really you Big Vern? We thought you'd been turned into a toad or something, man).

Jackson is young and he's going to have some games like that. He's still at that stage of his career where the physical talents are what he is relying upon more than experience and technique. He seems like a guy that can make the leap, though. And Cockrell, he's certainly been pretty good.

 

 

Yeah, I never have blamed a lost on a single player, but this was as close as you could get for Daryl.  

Yeah, Jackson made some plays.  It is frustrating because he really could be a probowl type player if he cleans stuff up.  

[Mr. Scot]

I've seen the OL get a lot of praise from folks this year. Honestly don't think a lot of it is deserved.

The QBs getting the ball out fast makes them look better than they actually are sometimes.

[BrianS]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I've seen the OL get a lot of praise from folks this year. Honestly don't think a lot of it is deserved.

The QBs getting the ball out fast makes them look better than they actually are sometimes.

On the flip side, isn't this what we've asked for from our offense for years?  Stop with the slow developing routes that get our QB killed, and give us some fast throws that put the ball in the hands of our playmakers?

Seriously, credit Norv for properly evaluating the state of our OLine and taking steps in the form of gameplans that hide those deficiencies as much as possible.

[Mr. Scot]

6 minutes ago, BrianS said:

On the flip side, isn't this what we've asked for from our offense for years?  Stop with the slow developing routes that get our QB killed, and give us some fast throws that put the ball in the hands of our playmakers?

Seriously, credit Norv for properly evaluating the state of our OLine and taking steps in the form of gameplans that hide those deficiencies as much as possible.

Actually, what I've asked for is that our line be good enough to protect even when we did have slow developing routes 

Norv is covering for it, which is what you have to do. But sometimes having to adjust around that sort of thing weakens the offense, especially if your opponent figures out what you're doing.

[Seltzer]

Good observations OP.  I rewatched the Bucs game last week, and Cam was definitely way better than he was given initial credit for.

That being said, he still missed some throws we need him to make.  His reads were good, so I know the issue was related to being able to push off his foot, but the bottom line is the throws weren't made.

However, I also came away thinking the play calling was the offensive play calling was the worst part of that game.  To not think our best play would have been a QB sneak on 4th and 1/2 a yard with Cam gimpy or not is unacceptable.

Beyond that, Norv got outcoached by Todd Bowles.  I think the coaching was been solid for most of the year, but we inexplicably went away from the run in the 2nd half, which was compounded by Cam's injury.

You got to give the Bucs defense a lot of credit overall.  You could tell the Panthers were not expecting how good the Bucs defense was in the 1st half, and panicked in the 2nd half with the play calling when the runs weren't paying immediate dividends.

Darryl Williams (and by extension Shaq Barrett) blew up several drives in the 2nd half.  Every time the Panthers had a nice drive going, holding and/or a sack wrecked the drive.  It wasn't that Cam was moving the offense down the field, it was just that something awful (many times self-induced) happened on every drive in the 2nd half until the final drive.

It's hard to find too much fault with the defense.  In retrospect, Short was obviously hurt at some point and wasn't playing well.   The defense didn't seem to match the intensity of the Bucs throughout the game IMO, but overall, they did enough to win the game with a reasonable offensive output.

Ultimately, what stood out was that as self-destructive as the team was on offense in the 2nd half, we were still a ill-advised play call away from winning.

 

[CRA]

I don't think Barrett will be the same problem this time.  Frankly, I don't we were prepared and ready for the type season he is having.  Ron is pretty good about neutralizing guys to a degree when he sees them often.   He just doesn't do it well in game.  But from one game to the next? His teams more often than not do a decent job zeroing on the problem players on both sides. 

[Seltzer]

34 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Actually, what I've asked for is that our line be good enough to protect even when we did have slow developing routes 

Norv is covering for it, which is what you have to do. But sometimes having to adjust around that sort of thing weakens the offense, especially if your opponent figures out what you're doing.

Yep.  The offensive line has to be able to block it up enough at certain times to be able to take shots down the field to have an effective offense.

You can scheme to get the ball out fast for the most part, but if you never throw the deep ball, defenses will adjust, especially at the pro level.  An offense that can't produce explosive plays will get exposed.

A good example is what we were able to do against the Cardinals with Murray completing a lot of balls by getting the ball out fast, but not being able to sustain drives b/c we were effective at tackling.  Eventually at the end of the game, when Murray had to take deeper shots, our defense feasted.

Similar to how teams started playing us towards the end of last year when Cam couldn't push the ball down the field. 

Norv has been really good this year IMO (outside of the Bucs), but there are limits to what even good play calling can mask without a good offensive line.

Our defense and run game has done a good job keeping us in (and winning games) even against pretty good teams, but regardless of whether it's Kyle or Cam, we're not going to beat the elite teams (like the Saints) without the Oline playing well enough for the QB to threaten the defense at all levels, especially deep.

[PantherBrew]

8 minutes ago, CRA said:

I don't think Barrett will be the same problem this time.  Frankly, I don't we were prepared and ready for the type season he is having.  Ron is pretty good about neutralizing guys to a degree when he sees them often.   He just doesn't do it well in game.  But from one game to the next? His teams more often than not do a decent job zeroing on the problem players on both sides. 

Yeah, it was a perfect storm.  Barrett is a new force, Williams is terrible at left tackle, and Cam was immobile.  

 

[PantherBrew]

3 minutes ago, Seltzer said:

Yep.  The offensive line has to be able to block it up enough at certain times to be able to take shots down the field to have an effective offense.

You can scheme to get the ball out fast for the most part, but if you never throw the deep ball, defenses will adjust, especially at the pro level.  An offense that can't produce explosive plays will get exposed.

A good example is what we were able to do against the Cardinals with Murray completing a lot of balls by getting the ball out fast, but not being able to sustain drives b/c we were effective at tackling.  Eventually at the end of the game, when Murray had to take deeper shots, our defense feasted.

Similar to how teams started playing us towards the end of last year when Cam couldn't push the ball down the field. 

Norv has been really good this year IMO (outside of the Bucs), but there are limits to what even good play calling can mask without a good offensive line.

Our defense and run game has done a good job keeping us in (and winning games) even against pretty good teams, but regardless of whether it's Kyle or Cam, we're not going to beat the elite teams (like the Saints) without the Oline playing well enough for the QB to threaten the defense at all levels, especially deep.

Good post. 

This game Sunday is going to come down to one thing.  Can CMC carry us again.  We have to have 100+ rushing to take the pressure off Allen. While their defense isnt great, it is fast and can feast when things are going well.  

We are not the same team that we were in week 2.  We are solely running the offense through CMC, which is the way it should be when Cam returns. I think this stretch is going to really help Cam show how to get the most out of CMC. 

[KB_fan]

Great thread.

[CRA]

7 minutes ago, PantherBrew said:

Good post. 

This game Sunday is going to come down to one thing.  Can CMC carry us again.  We have to have 100+ rushing to take the pressure off Allen. While their defense isnt great, it is fast and can feast when things are going well.  

We are not the same team that we were in week 2.  We are solely running the offense through CMC, which is the way it should be when Cam returns. I think this stretch is going to really help Cam show how to get the most out of CMC. 

I don't think CMC is going to have 100+ yards.  Tampa pretty much refuses to let the run beat them and willingly concedes to die by the pass if you can get them off.  

CMC, Kamara, Gurley.  They shut them all down. 

If the Giants can beat them.  We can beat them.  Just gotta hit what they give us.   

[Khyber53]

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

I've seen the OL get a lot of praise from folks this year. Honestly don't think a lot of it is deserved.

The QBs getting the ball out fast makes them look better than they actually are sometimes.

It's kind of a symbiotic thing... good o-line play and quick release from the QB...