Kyle Allens film study (it's not good)

[1of10Charnatives]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

See, winning is only valid if it happens with my favorite player in the game. Otherwise it's bad.

Actually winning is only valid if I predicted it, bet on it, and will get nookie from the hot red head two seats down at the bar because of it. 

My favorite player is me, and I'm undefeated.

In my mind.

[ellis]

5 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

uhhh

Sorry pictures were out of sequence...

 

 

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

Actually winning is only valid if I predicted it, bet on it, and will get nookie from the hot red head two seats down at the bar because of it. 

My favorite player is me, and I'm undefeated.

In my mind.

Fair point.

What's funny for me is that I've alternately been called a Kyle Allen jock sniffer and a Kyle Allen hater. My stated position has been that he's still mostly an unknown, but I guess people can interpret that in whatever way fits their narrative.

Meanwhile, people sit back and have fits over things they can't change.

Reality: If Allen keeps winning and ultimately supplants Cam Newton, there's nothing a million negative threads on a niche message board can do to stop that.

Likewise, if Allen ultimately falls to earth (as someone who said they watched his college career stated he tends to do after starting out hot) fan support won't change that either.

In the interim, those of us who don't give a damn who's starting as long as we win will keep rooting for the whole team, not just certain players on it.

Novel concept, I know.

[TheRed]

Allen is who he is at the moment. People need to adjust expectations. Especially looking at the back half of our schedule. Personally I'm not going to bother trying to pile on the guy, he's really made about the best he could out of what would surely be a disadvantageous situation for most other young quarterbacks. But it is a bit bewildering seeing folks just blindly littering "4-0" without context while somehow forgetting this team was 6-1 at one point last season. Things can change quickly in the NFL, Panthers fans should know this as well as anyone.

[t96]

46 minutes ago, KaseKlosed said:

CMC just does not have the power Kamara or Barkley or Bell has.

See you’re still doing it.

[Varking]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Fair point.

What's funny for me is that I've alternately been called a Kyle Allen jock sniffer and a Kyle Allen hater. My stated position has been that he's still mostly an unknown, but I guess people can interpret that in whatever way fits their narrative.

Meanwhile, people sit back and have fits over things they can't change.

Reality: If Allen keeps winning and ultimately supplants Cam Newton, there's nothing a million negative threads on a niche message board can do to stop that.

Likewise, if Allen ultimately falls to earth (as someone who said they watched his college career stated he tends to do after starting out hot) fan support won't change that either.

In the interim, those of us who don't give a damn who's starting as long as we win will keep rooting for the whole team, not just certain players on it.

Novel concept, I know.

I root for the whole team. But right now I root a little extra for Brian Burns and CMC. The guy who popped me before the game when he came over though was DJ Moore. He always looks angry on TV but in person he seemed like a really happy kid. 

[joeyxfresco]

Eh, I wouldn’t trash KA for the sake of defending Cam. Cam is obviously miles better than KA but is doing his job and not losing us any games. The better we can hide hide his flaws the more valuable he can be once we trade him 

[Snake]

Dur hur Kyle Allen sux would have taken less time. I promise you I could cherry pick Aaron Rodgers film and Patrick Mahomes film and give you the same results. 

[Carl Spackler]

but winzzz

[fortyrod]

54 minutes ago, BIGH2001 said:

I don’t know why this is such an obsession anyway.  We are winning games and no one seems to care about anything but taking sides on who should be our QB. 

Haven't you heard? Only trolling and pandering fetch eyeballs!   But yeah, I'm a Panthers fan and as such I want both KA and Cam to be wildly healthy and successful. Is that so wrong?

[Mr. Scot]

30 minutes ago, CRA said:

I think too many miss the fact....that all that is pretty much normal.  

He has 4 starts under his belt.  So yeah, game is going super duper fast.  He is missing some easy stuff a vet would see.  He bails early.  He literally is seeing things every week, every quarter and every series he has never experienced before. 

and we are 4-0.  Little to do but be happy and enjoy his play and see what happens 

Well, we can't allow that now, can we?

See, the only thing that matters to me is one question: Is he getting better? Not "are his stats getting better", is he getting better. You don't measure that by stats because guys can have great performances that don't have great stats, and vice versa.

My answer on that for the moment is I'm still not so sure. The last game especially was tough to judge because it was pretty obvious that we limited the offense for fear our offensive line wouldn't hold up. That, added to questions about the O-Line status, makes it harder to get a clear picture.

What I do know...

There are things that Kyle Allen does really well, hitting receivers in stride especially. Some of what have turned into touchdown passes might otherwise have just been modest to decent gains if he hadn't put the ball exactly where it needed to be. Can't discount that, and unless you have an agenda you shouldn't be trying.

Has he looked as good as he did against Arizona? No, but again most quarterbacks (Newton included) look better against teams that aren't as tough. Not sure why that should shock anybody.

An additional factor is that,whether due to injuries or just poor performance, our offensive line also hasn't really looked that great. And like above, poor offensive line performance affecting quarterback performance really shouldn't shock anybody. Even the best quarterbacks in the league have their game thrown off when the pass rush is closing in on them.

So again, there's good, there's bad. If you wanted to cherry pick and create a highlight reel that shows Allen is the best quarterback in history, I'm sure you could. Likewise, if you put together a film that included only negative plays (or plays that you spin as being negative whether they actually are or not) you can just as easily accomplish the opposite purpose.

Me? I just want to watch us win. As long as we keep doing that, I don't give a sh-t if Mario Addison starts at quarterback.

[ellis]

He’s 4-0 as a starter, with three road wins and has yet to throw a throw a pass to the other team.  He has fumbled at an alarmingly high rate. There are several factors that lead to that, including o-line play. Each situation has a different set of circumstances. He does have to do a much better job of climbing the pocket at times as well as keeping both hands on the ball in transition. 

Also, if you play close attention to film, teams are bracketing and eliminating 88. 22 is still finding ways to get open, but 88 is not going to be allowed to be a factor. That can create problems for a young quarterback. I think he’s improvised and handled things pretty well, all things considered. I don’t think he belongs in Canton, but he’s the kind of steady hand at the back up position I felt strongly he could be.

[lightsout]

1 hour ago, KaseKlosed said:

 

Alright, let's play the "this guy doesn't understand football as much as he thinks he does" game.

First clip, that is mesh-sit, not mesh. This is given away by the sitting receiver in the middle of the field. Once it's diagnosed zone, you know your deeper routes are covered, and the hook at mid field is going to be likely open. CMC is the hot read. If nothing is open, he's there. Is it easy to say "see how open CMC is? Should've thrown it to him" but the eventual target was open enough and he threw a good ball.

Second clip, I don't think he understands what he is looking at. There is ONE route that MAY have been open, and that's the deep in across the middle from the slot out of the trips set. In order to have the time and the ability to hit that throw, Allen would have to step into that pocket and deliver a good ball, as the safety is bearing down on that route. Look at backside A gap (Allen's left side A gap). Now match that with the timing of that route. See why he rolls? He has to to either throw the ball away or hit Samuel on the sideline. Ironically, this is the type of play we see from Cam often on his rollouts. Wonder if the same people applauding this take would applaud the criticism of Cam's game...

Third clip, bad read. Thinking he had to think that safety was going deep with the outside route and was just wrong. Can't say much against his take on it, but you'll see plenty of those kinds of plays from top tier QBs even. Not an indictment on Allen overall, but certainly was his screw up on that play that could've been a turnover.

Fourth clip, pressure was getting there no matter what. Was a misstep at the back of his drop, definitely should've felt where the pressure was coming from and slid away from it, but that's a rookie QB making a rookie QB mistake. If he takes that half step to his left instead of his right, we're looking at a CMC catch and run for a first.

Fifth clip, I'm assuming by "blind" he means the open Samuel (I think it is anyway) in the middle. Well, sure, if you look at it from the end of the play. Let's look at the reality of what happened. From our standpoint, Samuel is absolutely rubbing on the defender there. Why would he do that? SEEMS like it's a designed to go to CMC. Couple that with a blitzing LB coming through the passing lane to Samuel and the fact that the safety was clearly keying on CMC pre-snap and immediately goes for him, this feels like a play that was diagnosed throughout the week and recognized pre-snap. OR, at minimum, it's man coverage and they disguised that fact and the safety is going to his man screaming. One or the other. Either way, it's either Allen taking a safe throw with pressure bearing down or a designed play that didn't work.



 

[Mr. Scot]

6 minutes ago, ellis said:

He’s 4-0 as a starter, with three road wins and has yet to throw a throw a pass to the other team.  He has fumbled at an alarmingly high rate. There are several factors that lead to that, including o-line play. Each situation has a different set of circumstances. He does have to do a much better job of climbing the pocket at times as well as keeping both hands on the ball in transition. 

Also, if you play close attention to film, teams are bracketing and eliminating 88. 22 is still finding ways to get open, but 88 is not going to be allowed to be a factor. That can create problems for a young quarterback. I think he’s improvised and handled things pretty well, all things considered. I don’t think he belongs in Canton, but he’s the kind of steady hand at the back up position I felt strongly he could be.

To be fair, that one pass late in the last game would have been an interception had the guy not dropped it.

I know, doesn't count, but objectively speaking it wasn't the greatest pass.

On the flipside though, I mentioned in the other thread that I don't recall seeing him fumble a center snap. That's pretty rare among young quarterbacks. Even the best of them frequently have butterfingers early on.

I know you've been watching film, so I'll ask you whether you remember seeing him do it this year, last year, or even in the preseason because I don't.