A healthy Cam or CMC who do you resign?

[kungfoodude]

A good example is actually the Giants. Saquon was awesome last year, and the Giants were terrible. Eli was terrible last year, and the Giants were terrible. Now that they have switched to Jones, things have turned around. QB's in the modern era will always have way, way, way bigger impact on the success of a franchise than RB's, IMO.

[Varking]

3 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Would you keep Eli Manning over Saquon Barkley?

No. But at this point I would take Daniel Jones over Saquon. It sounds outrageous but with Jones playing well without stud WRs like OBJ and without Saquon on the field he won a game. Barkley's backup even played well. When Eli played poorly and Saquon was balling out all last year they were a top 10 draft pick. The difference? The QB.

David Johnson gets wasted until Arizona develops a passer. Murray isn't there yet but Johnson was All-Pro. Joe Mixon lead the AFC in rushing yards and got nowhere due to his QB. D.Henry? Will be wasted in Tennessee with Mariota at QB.

More often then not the Super Bowl winners have 1 of two things. Either an amazing defense or a QB playing out of their mind. Tom Brady wins without a world beater at RB. The Eagles won a Super Bowl on the backs of two QBs and RBBC.

2015 postseason: 0 players ran for 100 yards per game.

2016? 2 players Zeke and Bell. And Zeke was 1 and done.

2017? 1. Gurley. And he was 1 and done.

2018? 1. And it was Michel in a RBBC where Burkhead was the #7 postseason rusher and James White had 20 catches for over 50 yards a game.

It sucks to admit it but as terrible of a blanket statement as it is, a QB is almost always worth more than a RB. In most cases the #10 QB can probably get you more wins in a season than the #5 RB. Its just the way the league is.

[Mr. Scot]

2 hours ago, Varking said:

No. But at this point I would take Daniel Jones over Saquon. It sounds outrageous but with Jones playing well without stud WRs like OBJ and without Saquon on the field he won a game. Barkley's backup even played well. When Eli played poorly and Saquon was balling out all last year they were a top 10 draft pick. The difference? The QB.

David Johnson gets wasted until Arizona develops a passer. Murray isn't there yet but Johnson was All-Pro. Joe Mixon lead the AFC in rushing yards and got nowhere due to his QB. D.Henry? Will be wasted in Tennessee with Mariota at QB.

More often then not the Super Bowl winners have 1 of two things. Either an amazing defense or a QB playing out of their mind. Tom Brady wins without a world beater at RB. The Eagles won a Super Bowl on the backs of two QBs and RBBC.

2015 postseason: 0 players ran for 100 yards per game.

2016? 2 players Zeke and Bell. And Zeke was 1 and done.

2017? 1. Gurley. And he was 1 and done.

2018? 1. And it was Michel in a RBBC where Burkhead was the #7 postseason rusher and James White had 20 catches for over 50 yards a game.

It sucks to admit it but as terrible of a blanket statement as it is, a QB is almost always worth more than a RB. In most cases the #10 QB can probably get you more wins in a season than the #5 RB. Its just the way the league is.

It actually is a terrible blanket statement, and primarily because it assumes all other things are equal when they're not. Ditto with the idea of thinking that we have to do things a certain way because previous teams did it when in reality every team is different and what works is cyclical.

Here's the harsh truth: Age, health, injury history and quality of play are all to McCaffrey's advantage. Plus, for two games so far, McCaffrey has done it without Newton. Do you have equal trust that Newton could perform without McCaffrey?

Given that McCaffrey is pretty much the engine of our offense right now, that's a tough sell.

I get that everyone wants to see Newton come back and ball out. That'd make a great story. But right now, it's just a story, and not a very likely one.

Heck, I'd love it too, but I learned a long time ago to differentiate between what I want to happen what I think will happen.

Bottom Line: I'm not confident that even if Newton returns healthy that he stays healthy.

And honestly, even if I were, the notion that you'd let a 23 year old player who is generating MVP talk right now go in order to keep a 30 year old player who was MVP four years ago is not even close to logical.

You're thinking with your heart, not your head.

As cold and harsh and soulless as it may sound, this is how football works, and that's not changing anytime soon.

The day when it became time to move on from Newton was always going to come. Sad to say it may come before a lot of us are really ready, but that's how it goes.

It's quite possible that the day we have to move on from Luke isn't that far off either. But whether it's a year from now or five years from now or whenever, that day will get here.

When it does, we'll have to make that decision on merit rather than emotion.

Same as now...

[CanadianCat]

7 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

It's quite possible that the day we have to move on from Luke isn't that far off either. But whether it's a year from now or five years from now or whenever, that day will get here.

When it does, we'll have to make that decision on merit rather than emotion.

Same as now...

woof - thats a hard thought. 

With Cam its easier to swallow just because he has been on a decline and (other than 2015) never been a complete world beater (mainly due to his passing accuracy). Luke on the other hand has been the best in the league at his position from day one. That will be a hard day.

... but I also felt that way after Dan Morgan and Beason.. good thing its in the bones of this team to draft good LB's

On a side note - I still HATE seeing AJ playing for the Saints. I liked that kid. 

[Varking]

7 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Do you have equal trust that Newton could perform without McCaffrey?

 

You have to remember I wasn't trying to debate anyone in this post at the start. The idea was the answer the OPs question. Healthy Cam to me isn't Cam at 80% or 90%. Its Cam back to 100%. If Cam is 100% then yes I would fully expect Cam to help the team more than 100% CMC. Cam took us to a Super Bowl with the number 1 offense in the NFL in 2015 with a lot less offensive talent around him than we have today. 

Again, this is based off the premise that Cam is healthy. This isn't Cam playing at 80% vs CMC at 100%. Or at least that isn't how I read the question. 

[Mr. Scot]

5 minutes ago, Varking said:

You have to remember I wasn't trying to debate anyone in this post at the start. The idea was the answer the OPs question. Healthy Cam to me isn't Cam at 80% or 90%. Its Cam back to 100%. If Cam is 100% then yes I would fully expect Cam to help the team more than 100% CMC. Cam took us to a Super Bowl with the number 1 offense in the NFL in 2015 with a lot less offensive talent around him than we have today. 

Again, this is based off the premise that Cam is healthy. This isn't Cam playing at 80% vs CMC at 100%. Or at least that isn't how I read the question. 

Being healthy doesn't make him seven years younger or lower his cap hit.

Nor does it guarantee he stays that way.

[Varking]

38 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Being healthy doesn't make him seven years younger or lower his cap hit.

Nor does it guarantee he stays that way.

The thread was about healthy Cam...I am talking about healthy Cam for this season. I didn't know we were debating the next few seasons? 

[TheMaulClaw]

17 hours ago, Varking said:

Just answering off the title:

CMC had an otherworldy season last year. We had a losing record.

Cam had an otherworldy year in 2015 and we went to a Super Bowl.

A healthy Cam puts this team on another level. A healthy CMC is amazing but we had one last year, too. 

What did the qb situation look like last year?

The point is...an average qb on the field sets us up to win.

[Varking]

58 minutes ago, TheMaulClaw said:

What did the qb situation look like last year?

The point is...an average qb on the field sets us up to win.

Win what? I want to win playoff games. We aren't doing that with an average QB. 

[TheMaulClaw]

6 minutes ago, Varking said:

Win what? I want to win playoff games. We aren't doing that with an average QB. 

Delhomme was average...Cam hasnt done anymore then Delhomme has.

[raz]

1 hour ago, Varking said:

The thread was about healthy Cam...I am talking about healthy Cam for this season. I didn't know we were debating the next few seasons? 

i just think that's what's on everybody's mind.   its hard to imagine a 30 yr old running qb with multiple shoulder injuries and now foot issues coming back and being able to sustain his style of play for any length of time.  if you look up his td/int ratio there's not a lot of reason to think he can dazzle w/out running.  its not even 2:1

[Varking]

1 minute ago, raz said:

i just think that's what's on everybody's mind.   its hard to imagine a 30 yr old running qb with multiple shoulder injuries and now foot issues coming back and being able to sustain his style of play for any length of time.  if you look up his td/int ratio there's not a lot of reason to think he can dazzle w/out running.  its not even 2:1

A healthy Cam would be a running Cam though. Cam was 20 TDs and 7 INTs through 12 weeks last year. That isn't terrible. If you are asking me who to give a big contract to Cam or CMC going forward its CMC and its not close. I took this thread as asking about what is more important for this season... a healthy Cam or CMC and there really isn't any data to support CMC being more valuable in terms of wins and losses than Cam if he were healthy. 

[Varking]

5 minutes ago, TheMaulClaw said:

Delhomme was average...Cam hasnt done anymore then Delhomme has.

Jake won an MVP? 

[mc52beast]

How long does a healthy Cam stay healthy? Maybe he returns and has a great season but can you assume that he will do the same after you give him 30+ million? 
 

You also have to take into account that Cam isn’t going to be a dual threat forever, eventually the wheels will fall off. Will he be a competent pocket passer?

Too many questions about Cam, gotta go with CMC