Cam Gives A Detailed Video Update About Why He is Sidelined (Friday Sept 27th)

[1of10Charnatives]

3 hours ago, raz said:

and charnative dude, yeah cam stunted on everyone in 2015.  rivera let the whole team stunt on people.  it was embarrassing to me, and all those same d's he stunted on gave it back to him when they got a chance.   that happened.  that's what happens in sports for as long as i can remember.   

This is the way we’ve always done it is never an acceptable reason not to change. It’s always the way it’s been done until it’s done better. Are TD celebrations legal? Yes. Are helmet to helmet hits legal? No. Disliking the one in no way justifies the other and shrugging your shoulders and saying “That’s the way it’s always been” has never changed anything.

 

[1of10Charnatives]

1 minute ago, Nesbro1 said:

I'm going to assume you never played.

But yes even with eyes forward heads are going to collide.

Take your left hand. Your middle finger represents your head.

Lower your hand from dead ventricle to 45 degrees proper back angle going into any type of football hit ( block or tackle)

Now take your right hand. Lower it to 45 degrees. This is the angle a ball carrier takes to protect his midsection. 

 

Now run them into each other. Your middle fingers will hit first more often than not.

 

I don't like the blindside block rule. That's pure bs. You are taught at 6yrs old to keep your head on a swivel esp against blindside blocks.

The game is becoming soft. They need to roll the rules back to 1986.

 

Yes we knew about the dangers. The first time you put on a helmet there's a sticker that says you can die.

 

Your very first practice the coaches warn against death or being paralyzed. Even at 6 years old. 

 

Players know the risk. They are good with it. 

Hell I would trade 10 years off my life to have had football beyond college. 

If you have played then you know that proper tackling technique greatly reduces incidence and severity of helmet to helmet collisions. Lowering your head as players do way too often now has no justifiable reason other than trying to create a highlight hit. 

You say players are taught to keep their head on a swivel . This is true of any contact sport, but qb’s are also taught to keep their eyes downfield. With one set of eyes and a single point of focus, please explain how qb’s could do both these things simultaneously. The conflicting nature of these directives means that qb’s, the players who most frequently have the ball and are targeted by defenders for hits of maximum impact, cannot do their job effectively AND always be completely aware of what is coming at them. 

im sure you’re fully aware that this is precisely why left tackle is the most important oline position, because teams invariably place their best pass rusher to the qb’s blindside to maximize the chance of a hit he does not see coming and that may knock the ball loose. This means that the qb’s inability to fully be responsible for his own safety is ingrained into the very structure of modern football.

We can put all of this aside and get to the meat of the issue very simply.

Do you believe Cam deserves the same level of protection from illegal hits that Tom Brady does?

If no, then you do not believe in equal enforcement and we fundamentally disagree at a level that cannot be resolved.

If yes, do you believe he has received that protection over the course of his career?

If you think he has, then I think you are delusional and we fundamentally disagree at a level that cannot be resolved.

If you think he has not, do you think his perfectly legal TD celebrations are justification for illegal hits by opposing players and non enforcement by officials?

If yes then we fundamentally disagree.

If no then you shouldn’t accept that excuse either.

[raz]

1 hour ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

This is the way we’ve always done it is never an acceptable reason not to change. It’s always the way it’s been done until it’s done better. Are TD celebrations legal? Yes. Are helmet to helmet hits legal? No. Disliking the one in no way justifies the other and shrugging your shoulders and saying “That’s the way it’s always been” has never changed anything.

 

i can't read your books.  you're tedious 

[1of10Charnatives]

1 minute ago, Nesbro1 said:

I think all players should have the rules enforced the same.

He probably has not had them enforced the same and even tho it's wrong he brings it on himself. Like it or not officials are human and might have some subconscious bias against his showmanship or really might see him as bigger so hits don't look as severe. ( again I think they need to take the skirts off the QBs)

But that hit at the goal line that Ron takes flack for when he says I'd have taken a shot too was all on Cam.

He sauntered at the goal line and didn't protect himself. 

If I was on the other team I'd of knocked the schit out of my mother if she had the ball in that situation. 

Getting hit the way he has doesn't make passes sail incomplete. Play so well that the officials have no impact is what we were always taught.

Don't look now but even though it's wrong he brings it on himself is the same line of logic used to shame rape victims because of how they dressed or behaved prior to being the victim of an assault. In my opinion in both instances this is excuse making on behalf of guilty parties and as long as this sort of thinking persists, it will continue to encourage behavior that should be discouraged by everyone.  I agree that at least some portion of the officials bias maybe subconscious, but when Ed Hochuli tells Cam he doesn't get that call, that should remove any doubt that some significant portion of the bias is intentional.

Sauntering at the goal line was foolish and you won't hear me defend it. As long as you hit your mom legally I'd have no problem with your knocking the stuffing out of her. That's a legitimate effort to dislodge the ball and prevent a score. I'll also grant you that my point about qb awareness doesn't apply in that situation since he wasn't about to throw the ball. Bottom line, it was a dumb mistake on his part and I yelled at him on the tv for it. I'm sure he heard me. I don't have a distinct memory of whether there was anything untoward about the nature of the hit he took at that point, which means it was probably otherwise fine, but this is a point worth parsing.

Suppose the hit was an illegal helmet to helmet hit (not saying it was, creating a hypothetical). It can simultaneously be true that Cam's behavior was foolish and he failed to protect himself as he should AND an illegal hit was uncalled for and should be penalized. Such things are not a binary equation.

As to whether hits don't make passes sail incomplete, two things: Having watched Cam his entire career, his accuracy has always been one of if not the biggest flaw in his game, so in large part we are in agreement on that. However, the caveat is how recent hits may have affected his ability to throw, specifically the hit by TJ Watt last year. 

We all know that game was the fulcrum of our season and specifically Cam's performance throwing the ball. Can you honestly not watch that hit, at the way Watt targeted his shoulder and lowered his helmet, look at Cam's performance throwing the ball ever since that hit and not say it had an impact?

What in the name of fair play justifies the way Watt, with a clear line to the qb, made contact at that highly specific part of the body that just happens to be so critical to throwing the ball? What excuses a competent officiating crew from failing to call a penalty on Watt on that play? If they were looking at the play, lowering the helmet was obvious and we all know it's illegal, open and shut. If none of them were looking at a qb about to release the ball that's professional incompetence and needs to be dealt with accordingly. Beyond that, the league had all the time in the world to review the play after the fact and issue a fine. It failed to do so, but did see fit to fine Watt for his hit on Matt Ryan.  Given that replays show the hit to Cam being clearly an infraction, the failure to issue a fine is pretty damning evidence of uneven enforcement on the league's part.

It is difficult the play so well the officials don't matter in a violent game where uneven enforcement of rules designed to limit that violence at multiple levels leads to hits that destroy a players ability to do his job going forward.

[1of10Charnatives]

4 minutes ago, raz said:

i can't read your books.  you're tedious 

Your ADHD is not my problem.

[bigdavis]

6 hours ago, raz said:

in this thread there is a rivera interview where he describes the situation going into that tampa game, i think its this thread, where he says what i repeated.  i didn't see you asked me that.  it also seems way more than likely that he hid how bad his shoulder was hurting last year - so in your employee story its not the first time, or the 2nd, or the 3rd, and that employee had a fit when i made him go home and rest, and then got mad when one of his crew did a good job.  i think there is blame to go around, don't get me wrong, but a good part of it goes on cam.

All that opinion of yours is fine, but you've never answered my question:

"and then got mad again that we won"  Where do you get that from?

That's not opinion -- you stated it as fact.  Back it up, or stick to labeling your posts as opinion.

(and an aside to those 2 guys who hijacked this thread about Newton, to go on and on again: either get a room, or start a new thread where only you 2 can post, so the rest of us can avoid the tedium.  Conciseness is not a crime, either.)

Now it's game day.  Go, Panthers!

[raz]

1 minute ago, bigdavis said:

All that opinion of yours is fine, but you've never answered my question:

"and then got mad again that we won"  Where do you get that from?

That's not opinion -- you stated it as fact.  Back it up, or stick to labeling your posts as opinion.

(and an aside to those 2 guys who hijacked this thread about Newton, to go on and on again: either get a room, or start a new thread where only you 2 can post, so the rest of us can avoid the tedium.  Conciseness is not a crime, either.)

Now it's game day.  Go, Panthers!

for you i'm gonna dig thru this post and try and find it.  it may take a few

[raz]

On 9/28/2019 at 12:23 AM, SBiii said:

That's not how the NFL works.  Cam is QB#1 and if he's strapped up and ready to roll then that's how the Panthers roll. 

That said, your take on Rowboat is wrong.  Wrong, wrong, wrong:

"Players and coaches aren't always in agreement on whether an injury is serious enough for a player to miss time.

When there is gray area, Rivera will talk it through with his player.

"Sometimes the player will tell me a little something different from what he tells the trainer," Rivera says. "Most of the guys don't want to let you down. They feel they let you down if they're hurt. ... I think they are more honest with the doctors than they are with the coaches and their teammates because they don't want to let us down."

Some players need to be told they can't play under any circumstances. Rivera recalls quarterback Cam Newton lobbying to play in the Panthers' 2014 season opener against the Buccaneers even though he had fractured a rib in a preseason game. Rivera told him he wasn't playing.

"He fought me, argued with me. He got mad and stormed out," Rivera says. "But I didn't play him. Come Sunday, he was cheering everybody on, helping Derek Anderson out. Then we won the game, and he was mad at me again. Sometimes you have to protect them from themselves."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2749101-inside-the-nfls-secret-world-of-injuries

"Rivera says he has had both assistant coaches and players alert him to players who were exhibiting concussion symptoms. He says some players still fight about coming off the field."

hey bigdavis, here you go

[Mr. Scot]

On 9/28/2019 at 8:23 AM, Khyber53 said:

Said it before, the only person who has the stroke to pull Cam from a game is Cam. 

That's not a good thing if it's true.

Any time a player has more power than a head coach, that tells me one of two things:

1) Higher ups (GM or owner) back the player more than the coach, which basically undermines his authority

2) The coach is just weak

Number one happened while Richardson was here but I don't know that Tepper would do that sort of thing. My gut feeling is that he wouldn't.

Number two? Judge for yourself.

[Mr. Scot]

On 9/28/2019 at 8:40 AM, 1of10Charnatives said:

The former impacts his performance as a football player, so I appreciate and admire it. His sexuality has no impact on his performance, so I quite literally could not care less.

It obviously concerns you enough to mention it, so I’d suggest given what we know about the statistical incidence of homosexuality in the overall population, more than one person you admire is gay and you just don’t know it. If this troubles you, maybe you should examine why you would let something that impacts neither you nor the things you admire about that person influence your opinion of them.

FYI: Juan posts stupid sh-t because he desperately craves attention. Ignore him.

[Mr. Scot]

On 9/28/2019 at 8:40 AM, 1of10Charnatives said:

The former impacts his performance as a football player, so I appreciate and admire it. His sexuality has no impact on his performance, so I quite literally could not care less.

It obviously concerns you enough to mention it, so I’d suggest given what we know about the statistical incidence of homosexuality in the overall population, more than one person you admire is gay and you just don’t know it. If this troubles you, maybe you should examine why you would let something that impacts neither you nor the things you admire about that person influence your opinion of them.

FYI: Juan posts stupid sh-t because he desperately craves attention. Ignore him.

[bigdavis]

2 minutes ago, raz said:

hey bigcat, here you go

Thanks for the reply, raz.

But I see a big difference in these 2 statements:

the one by Ron: "he was mad at me again"

and the one by you:  "and then got mad again that we won" 

To me, being mad that Ron took him out is not the same as your saying he was mad that we won.  You see my point?

Anyway, good talking with you, buddy.  Very civil.

[Khyber53]

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

That's not a good thing if it's true.

Any time a player has more power than a head coach, that tells me one of two things:

1) Higher ups (GM or owner) back the player more than the coach, which basically undermines his authority

2) The coach is just weak

Number one happened while Richardson was here but I don't know that Tepper would do that sort of thing. My gut feeling is that he wouldn't.

Number two? Judge for yourself.

Didn't say it was a good thing, but maybe this current situation is. Maybe, especially in light of the video, the relationship will be ordered as it should be --- superstar becomes something better, coach solidifies his leadership.

One can always hope.

[1of10Charnatives]

6 minutes ago, Nesbro1 said:

By definition of the rule Watts hit was illegal. 

I don't agree with the rule.

If I know an opposing player has something wrong I am going after it as cleanly as I can. 

Regardless the throwing arm and shoulder of a QB is absolutely the target on every pass rush because it cause turnovers fumble/interceptions. 

Again that one call probably doesn't change the outcome of the game. 

I have less issue about Cam getting calls unless the opposing QB in the same game is getting them. Then you have an unfair playing field. 

 

And we know unfortunately vet calls exist. Michael Jordan could have driven the lane,taken out a pistol, shot all five defenders and would have been granted a  foul shot for defensive foul.

I'm far less concerned with the outcome of that one game than the fact the illegal hit has quite clearly had an impact on our franchise qb's ability to do his job ever since and by extension affected the entire team. You disagree with the rule, I don't, precisely because it's proper enforcement is needed to prevent things like exactly what we're seeing now, and more importantly, guys who can't remember their own names at 45. Go talk to anyone who's had meaningful personal interaction with Dan Morgan in the last decade. It's not pretty, and Morgan had a bad habit of leading with his head. These things need to change, not get dialed back, imo, and I think that's where we most fundamentally disagree.

As much as I loved Jordan, and he's definitely the GOAT, I grew up being a bigger basketball fan than football fan at first, and I still never liked vet calls, even for the players I cheered. Jordan's otherworldly ability meant there's zero reason refs needed to artificially give him any additional advantages. A level playing field means a level playing field, period.  Officials copping to vet calls is officials confessing to knowingly corrupting the integrity of the game, regardless of the sport, and I'll never say it's okay. It doesn't mean I stick my head in the sand and pretend these things don't happen, it just means I don't excuse them with a shrug of the shoulders and "oh well, part of the game."