Robinson: Cam Newton’s injury sets up defining point for new Panthers owner David Tepper

[MasterAwesome]

50 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Nah.

Good, scurry along and let the adults have civilized discourse without you throwing emotional tantrums. Go to your room and don’t come out until you’ve calmed down.

[Jon Snow]

All I hear are excuses.  Nothing bad is his fault.  Only the things I think are good really matter.   He is not responsible for the team he manages and builds guys cause I think he's awesome!   

[thefuzz]

8 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Most of your critiques are either premature or subjective, with a bit of hindsight sprinkled in. I judge a GM’s moves based on what appear to be sound, rational decisions at the time they were made. Otherwise if you judge everything solely on the outcome, then you can say things like “oh Cockrell was a terrible signing cause he broke his leg”...as if that was something a GM could foresee.

Hurney also doesn’t get credit for certain solid moves due to Ron’s inability to capitalize. For example, the CJ Anderson signing was a great move...except for the fact that Ron/Norv didn’t utilize him. Hurney cutting him later on was inconsequential considering he wasn’t getting playing time anyways.

1:  Butker outperformed Gano when it mattered in pre season.  In the games.  Was under contract for 4 seasons at a really really good price.  Gano was older, and didn't have the years left on his contract that Butker did.  Was a dumb move then, and I fully expect that it came from Ron.  A good GM would have put his foot down on that deal.  Marty rolled over, then doubled down by paying Gano as 1 of the top kickers in the league when he has been streaky his entire career.  You don't pay someone for last season, you pay them for the next 3.  That addressed two of your points.  (please don't use "by all accounts" when discussing training camp, by all accounts Cam was dropping bombs during this TC)

2:  There was zero reason to extend Olsen when we did.  He was coming off injury, and was singed for another year.  It was a dumb extension, and we will pay for it next season.

3:  Getting investigated by the league is NEVER a good look.  Don't care who you are.  Jerry was totally cool with it though, you siding with that creep?

4:  Experienced backup and a GM with a backbone.  How could that have changed last season?  Farewell tour for Kalil, Pep, and Davis.....nah, we got a beer.  Marty had to be forced by the owner of the team to tell Ron to sit Cam.  Marty has no spine.

5:  Poe signing.  Said it's not looking great, and it's not.

6:  McCoy signing.  Position of need?  When you have KK, Poe, Butler (he's not good), Love, etc...how many high draft picks at DT does Ron't scheme need to perform?  Would have preferred that money to go to Bradberry for an extension.  But whatever.

7:  Already addressed the Bradberry signing, and the restructures we agree on.

8:  Gaulden cannot get on the field, and it was widely thought that it was a reach back then, nothing has changed.  The rest of those picks are depth.

9:  Trading Up. Rarely has this ever worked for Marty.  As I said Jury is still out.

[Mr. Scot]

57 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

This seems like feelings instead of facts though. 

His FA signings have not proven to be good.  Maybe not bad, but not good.

The only contracts that he has extended, have been bad, not good.

He did find a couple of good players that he signed to contracts, but none that are in the top tier, Bradberry, Shaq, Moton (not sure if he can be extended yet, but if he can be, he should be already).

As to Bradberry betting on himself....maybe.  But you typically don't see that outside of the 1st rounders.  They haven't made much money yet, and it seems awfully risky to bet on himself, at that position, when he could have signed a deal.  I have been beating the table for a BB deal for a long time, don't need to break the bank if you sign him with a year to go.  Wait till he's a FA and it's a huge deal, or the tag...neither are good for the team.

I 100% agree with you that he hasn't been as bad as the first stint, I just think there were better options out there when he was brought back into the fold, and there are still better options now.

The Carolina Panthers are at a HUGE crossroads this offseason, I'm not comfortable in the least with Marty Hurney holding the reigns.  That is where my frustration lies.  Again, not mad at Marty, he is likely doing his best, I'm mad at Jerry for bringing him back, and Tepper holding onto him....all the while we are losing football games, and seemingly our starting QB.

All correct. And you've touched a little bit on the part that I least understand.

Hurney is described by his supporters as "okay", "not that bad",  "potentially good", "hasn't screwed anything up too badly yet" and - my personal favorite - "not as bad as last time"...

... and people are apparently satisfied with that.

Just okay actually is okay, at least in the minds of some Panther fans.

Why, in a competitive business, when there are opportunities to do better than this, would you not want to do it?

Instead, while other organizations are, on an annual basis, actively trying to make themselves better, we have Panther fans stringently arguing to keep everything just as it is.

Do we not want to be better than this?

Why not?

[top dawg]

13 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Riiiiight.

It's not a grudge. It's an analysis. And there was a whole thread discussing the specific moves already (you took part in it).

What I love most about this though is the extremely low standard which Hurney has to reach to satisfy some folks. As long as he doesn't screw anything up too badly, we'll just go ahead and keep riding with him.

Sheesh

I used to argue against people who said Panthers fans were accepting of mediocrity, but damn...

In light of the fact that Cam was hurt last year, and our receiving corps was injured the season before that, there are legit reasons as to why we didn't go any further. As for the personnel moves, you can disagree all you want, they have been good! So, I reject your narrative and analysis. Tepper obviously rejected it too.

We'll see what happens this season.

[MasterAwesome]

32 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

All correct. And you've touched a little bit on the part that I least understand.

Hurney is described by his supporters as "okay", "not that bad",  "potentially good", "hasn't screwed anything up too badly yet" and - my personal favorite - "not as bad as last time"...

... and people are apparently satisfied with that.

Just okay actually is okay, at least in the minds of some Panther fans.

Why, in a competitive business, when there are opportunities to do better than this, would you not want to do it?

Instead, while other organizations are, on an annual basis, actively trying to make themselves better, we have Panther fans stringently arguing to keep everything just as it is.

Do we not want to be better than this?

Why not?

Why do you keep saying this lol. Can you provide any actual quotes of the above sentiments? “Nah”? Ok. Do you realize that your “personal favorite” quote was actually said by the guy you just responded to, who has been arguing against Hurney? Not from a “Hurney supporter”...that’s actually pretty embarrassing lol. You should probably fact-check yourself before you post.

Do you acknowledge the difference between saying “he’s much better this time” vs. “he’s not as bad as last time”?

[Cpt slay a ho]

4 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

One, he was never qualified for the job to begin with, but our idiot owner was known to give people jobs they didn't deserve as rewards.

Two, he looked okay early on the last time too, but things only got worse the longer he was in place.

Three, there are candidates out there who genuinely are qualified. If we pass over people like that (again) to keep this moron, we pretty much deserve whatever happens.

As has been mentioned before, Hurney doesn't know how to plan ahead. He's completely a fly by the seat of his pants, win now, use up whatever we've got guy with a penchant for an occasional hit and frequent dumbass decisions.

We deserve better.

I’ve already stated if there’s a better candidate than I can see us moving on from hurney, but better doesn’t mean just anyone because we don’t like hurney.

again most this post aims at what hurney has done in the past, I’m concerned about the now.

Plenty of success stories of guys who failed there first stint and are now doing a 10x better job than before, belicheck one of the more notable ones 

 

[Mr. Scot]

15 minutes ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

I’ve already stated if there’s a better candidate than I can see us moving on from hurney, but better doesn’t mean just anyone because we don’t like hurney.

again most this post aims at what hurney has done in the past, I’m concerned about the now.

Plenty of success stories of guys who failed there first stint and are now doing a 10x better job than before, belicheck one of the more notable ones 

There's one pretty key difference between Hurney and a lot of the stories you're talking about.

Pretty much all of them got their second stint somewhere else.

Marty Hurney was a general manager, the top of the personnel food chain. When he was let go from the Panthers, no other team gave him a look as even so much as an area scout.

And the reasoning is pretty obvious.

Marty had no scouting experience at all.

But that was the thing. You didn't have to have experience or qualifications for Jerry Richardson to give you a job. All you had to be was loyal to him.

If you scan the annual writeups for GM candidates, you'll find most of them have at least 10 years scouting experience. Many are already working high-level personnel jobs like director of scouting or pro personnel director.

Marty was a salary cap specialist.

And for the record, Hurney isn't the only story of that kind. we used to have a personnel executive who was promoted from the ticket office...

...the ticket office.

Again, the Panthers were the only team with a man in charge dumb enough to give Marty Hurney that kind of control. No other team was even interested in him for a low-level position.

But Jerry Richardson valued loyalty over ability, and so here we are.

[JARROD]

Thats tough.

it really depends on what you replace them with.

We've seen teams go into dream land with new coaches and GMs and more of the same or worst happens.

a few work out, Rams for example, but many don’t. You end up the Lions, Browns and a host of others.

[Cpt slay a ho]

20 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

There's one pretty key difference between Hurney and a lot of the stories you're talking about.

Pretty much all of them got their second stint somewhere else.

Marty Hurney was a general manager, the top of the personnel food chain. When he was let go from the Panthers, no other team gave him a look as even so much as an area scout.

And the reasoning is pretty obvious.

Marty had no scouting experience at all.

But that was the thing. You didn't have to have experience or qualifications for Jerry Richardson to give you a job. All you had to be was loyal to him.

If you scan the annual writeups for GM candidates, you'll find most of them have at least 10 years scouting experience. Many are already working high-level personnel jobs like director of scouting or pro personnel director.

Marty was a salary cap specialist.

And for the record, Hurney isn't the only story of that kind. we used to have a personnel executive who was promoted from the ticket office...

...the ticket office.

Again, the Panthers were the only team with a man in charge dumb enough to give Marty Hurney that kind of control. No other team was even interested in him for a low-level position.

But Jerry Richardson valued loyalty over ability, and so here we are.

Well thank god he’s no longer the owner, as far as hurney not getting a job I’m sure the lack of scouting didn’t help nor his resume of success at the time, rightfully so 

But obviously Tepper sees some good or good enough in him not to have canned him earlier if he truly is that unqualified currently. 

I don't deny that hurney shouldn’t have gotten the interim job in the first place, but he did and hasn’t done anything this go around to warrant his termination, just my opinion 

[MasterAwesome]

1 hour ago, thefuzz said:

1:  Butker outperformed Gano when it mattered in pre season.  In the games.  Was under contract for 4 seasons at a really really good price.  Gano was older, and didn't have the years left on his contract that Butker did.  Was a dumb move then, and I fully expect that it came from Ron.  A good GM would have put his foot down on that deal.  Marty rolled over, then doubled down by paying Gano as 1 of the top kickers in the league when he has been streaky his entire career.  You don't pay someone for last season, you pay them for the next 3.  That addressed two of your points.  (please don't use "by all accounts" when discussing training camp, by all accounts Cam was dropping bombs during this TC)

2:  There was zero reason to extend Olsen when we did.  He was coming off injury, and was singed for another year.  It was a dumb extension, and we will pay for it next season.

3:  Getting investigated by the league is NEVER a good look.  Don't care who you are.  Jerry was totally cool with it though, you siding with that creep?

4:  Experienced backup and a GM with a backbone.  How could that have changed last season?  Farewell tour for Kalil, Pep, and Davis.....nah, we got a beer.  Marty had to be forced by the owner of the team to tell Ron to sit Cam.  Marty has no spine.

5:  Poe signing.  Said it's not looking great, and it's not.

6:  McCoy signing.  Position of need?  When you have KK, Poe, Butler (he's not good), Love, etc...how many high draft picks at DT does Ron't scheme need to perform?  Would have preferred that money to go to Bradberry for an extension.  But whatever.

7:  Already addressed the Bradberry signing, and the restructures we agree on.

8:  Gaulden cannot get on the field, and it was widely thought that it was a reach back then, nothing has changed.  The rest of those picks are depth.

9:  Trading Up. Rarely has this ever worked for Marty.  As I said Jury is still out.

1. You don’t hand someone the starting kicker job because he made 2/2 field goals in preseason...that would be pretty irresponsible IMO, especially in light of the Aguayo fiasco (who also had a pretty good rookie preseason himself). He simply didn’t come close to earning the job...if you want to blame someone for the handling of that situation, it’s Rivera for not giving him the proper opportunity to earn the job in preseason. Hurney acted appropriately IMO in rolling with the vet until the team felt comfortable enough with the rookie. It’s not like he outright cut Butker...he kept two kickers on the active roster to start the season and demoted Butker to the practice squad when there should have been relatively minimal risk of him being poached (a 7th round rookie with two preseason kicks to his name)...until KC unfortunately had an injury and were in the market for a new kicker. 
Since you appear to be taking a consequentialist approach with regards to a GM’s moves, then if Slye ends up exceeding our wildest expectations and drastically outperforms Butker for his career, would that make that Gano/Butker situation a good move then? Since keeping Butker would mean we’d never have signed Slye? This is what happens when you go down that rabbit hole.

2. I’ll acknowledge the Olsen extension was probably not a smart move, given the circumstances at the time...I didn’t realize it was made after his injury.

3. Bottom line is that it was in the offseason and had no bearing on the team’s success...which is how I thought we were judging a GM. The district judge ruled that there was no evidence of wrongdoing on Hurney’s part and his ex-wife withdrew her complaint. If, for example, one of our players were wrongfully accused of rape and the charges were dismissed...would you blame that player for being a distraction?

4. Seems awfully speculative. Are you  arguing that some backup vet QB would have gotten us to the playoffs? It’s not hard to imagine that if we had a vet stopgap backup QB on our roster, that it would have been Allen’s position he’d be taking...which would have been quite unfortunate for us. I also don’t understand your argument...if you’re arguing that this guy should’ve told that guy to tell that guy, then why not blame Tepper for not telling Hurney sooner to tell Ron to tell Cam to sit? Why does the buck stop with Hurney and not Tepper? The way an organization works is that each position has their own designated responsibilities and has to entrust the other management personnel to do their jobs. Otherwise literally everything is Tepper’s fault and I don’t know why we’re having this discussion.

5. Is Poe playing well this season or not? I would argue it did not look great last season, but is looking good now.

6. You do know that the players you listed play different positions? You can’t just categorize all of them broadly as “DT”s...we were transitioning into a 3-4 defense and had a hole at 3-4 DE, which is where McCoy fits. Poe and Butler are 3-4 NTs...which leaves Short and Love at 3-4 DE. Love is a backup best suited in a rotation, hence McCoy being a need.

8. Gaulden essentially had a redshirt year and has missed two games this year and is back to practicing in full and presumably playing on Sunday. Not sure how you can draw any conclusions on him yet.

9. Sure, jury is still out...agreed.

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

Well thank god he’s no longer the owner, as far as hurney not getting a job I’m sure the lack of scouting didn’t help nor his resume of success at the time, rightfully so 

But obviously Tepper sees some good or good enough in him not to have canned him earlier if he truly is that unqualified currently. 

I don't deny that hurney shouldn’t have gotten the interim job in the first place, but he did and hasn’t done anything this go around to warrant his termination, just my opinion 

And again, this is my point.

If your performance standard is "well, he hasn't done anything too bad yet", then as long as he keeps us 7-9 or so, he'll be "good enough".

I'd much rather look to someone with some real qualifications.

[Cpt slay a ho]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

And again, this is my point.

If your performance standard is "well, he hasn't done anything too bad yet", then as long as he keeps us 7-9 or so, he'll be "good enough".

I'd much rather look to someone with some real qualifications.

Well i haven’t talked about the good once, I’ve only highlighted the bad, hence why I came to the conclusion there isn’t anything or accumulation of things to warranted a firing.

if I were to go over all the good he’s done, it will clearly outweigh the bad, which means he’s trending upward and not downward. 

[Mr. Scot]

18 minutes ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

Well i haven’t talked about the good once, I’ve only highlighted the bad, hence why I came to the conclusion there isn’t anything or accumulation of things to warranted a firing.

if I were to go over all the good he’s done, it will clearly outweigh the bad, which means he’s trending upward and not downward. 

Looking at individual transactions in a vacuum isn't how you evaluate a GM.

You have to look at the product that they  help put on the field.

Hurney has put up losing products year after year, with two different coaches.

I don't really care which individual moves we're good or bad if the overall product isn't good enough.