The Rivera Dilemma

[DeAngelo Beason]

31 minutes ago, Varking said:

Your argument was his numbers were as good as Cams. I pointed out it wasn't. It was close, but not on the same level. And yes there is a difference between 6 and 8 touchdowns. Then you changed the argument to he only played 2 games. That isn't relevant to comparing this to Cam. And you did that. These aren't Cam numbers at his best. 

And again, this isn't a knock on Allen. I couldn't be more proud of how he played. So, no, it did not disprove anything I wrote. 

I didn't change my argument.  I'm saying the numbers are roughly equivalent, and when you factor in the fact that it took that much more time (years) for Cam to pull it off, Allen's performance is far more impressive.

[DeAngelo Beason]

31 minutes ago, Varking said:

Read the comments I was replying to. This had nothing to do with Cam going forward vs Allen going forward. This was somebody stating that this two game stretch was as good as any Cam two game stretch so I pointed out it wasn't accurate. It was a nice thought though. 

Splitting hairs to be intentionally argumentative and/or overly-literal, like most in this forum do when they don't have a solid point to bring up.

[Khyber53]

1 hour ago, electro's horse said:

One of Rivera's main things, that he's mentioned every time, is he doesn't want players to lose their jobs before they feel their career is over.

It happened to him and it made a huge impression on him.

No veteran is going to get wally pip'd under rivera, no matter how poorly they play.

Do you have an actual quote we can check on that? No football player or coach would say that having existed in the reality of the game. They might have said they wished it wasn't the case, but I'm going to have to see an actual quote to tie that one on the coach.

[Varking]

2 minutes ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

I didn't change my argument.  I'm saying the numbers are roughly equivalent, and when you factor in the fact that it took that much more time (years) for Cam to pull it off, Allen's performance is far more impressive.

Just say almost as good and there would have been no argument. You can have fliers against both. What is more impressive over two games?

700 Total Yards and 8 Total TDs

vs

600 Total Yards and 6 TDs

QB1 is more impressive. QB2 was great and wasn't far off but QB1 was still a better stat line. There is no way to spin that as the second stat line is better. We weren't arguing over which was more impressive. You said it was as good as any Cam 2 game stretch. It wasn't. If these two were playing against each other in the game game you would say QB1 played better. That is the argument and refuse to move to goalposts of what is a better performance because you want to talk about games played. Cam did his without DJ Moore or Curtis Samuel. His 1 and 2 that year were guys who aren't even playing now due to injury and being fat. He didn't have the threat of CMC and who hasn't thrown well against Arizona so far? They have given up 5 TDs in 3 games to TEs alone. 

Allen has been great but its not fair to him to claim his two games have been as good as any 2 game stretch from Cam. Its not. 

[CarolinaXblue]

You can’t just throw Cam under the bus or praise Allen too much. It’s very calculated, and in my opinion Ron did the right thing, he gave credit but he’s not jumping into “Allen is the answer”. Yes, the kid played well, maybe he’s the guy. Who knows. But we’ve seen Case Keenum ball out for an almost entire season and look so so the next season. He’s got to be level headed as a coach and I think that’s what he did.

[DeAngelo Beason]

16 minutes ago, Varking said:

Just say almost as good and there would have been no argument. You can have fliers against both. What is more impressive over two games?

700 Total Yards and 8 Total TDs

vs

600 Total Yards and 6 TDs

QB1 is more impressive. QB2 was great and wasn't far off but QB1 was still a better stat line. There is no way to spin that as the second stat line is better. We weren't arguing over which was more impressive. You said it was as good as any Cam 2 game stretch. It wasn't. If these two were playing against each other in the game game you would say QB1 played better. That is the argument and refuse to move to goalposts of what is a better performance because you want to talk about games played. Cam did his without DJ Moore or Curtis Samuel. His 1 and 2 that year were guys who aren't even playing now due to injury and being fat. He didn't have the threat of CMC and who hasn't thrown well against Arizona so far? They have given up 5 TDs in 3 games to TEs alone. 

Allen has been great but its not fair to him to claim his two games have been as good as any 2 game stretch from Cam. Its not. 

Those two stat lines are roughly equivalent in my opinion.  I also never said that his 2 game stretch was BETTER than any Cam has had.  I said they were as good.  

100 yards and two tds over two games is virtually zero difference.  There are plenty of other factors we can throw in there that further solidify my point, but we can just stick with the numbers as far as I'm concerned.

I'll also add - who has crowned DJ Moore and Samuel as being significantly better than any other Panthers receivers?  We all see the potential but quite frankly they don't have numbers to back up that assumption.

[DeAngelo Beason]

1 hour ago, Varking said:

Cam in 2015 had a stretch of 2 games where he completed 68 and 71%, 8 TDs and 0 INTs. Also had 50 yards rushing in there. He basically did this twice that year with another set of 7 TDs and 0 INTs. His final like 8 games are 26 TDs and 1 INT. Obviously he won the MVP that year. Even had a 100 yard rushing game to go along with all the passing stats. 

Allens two game stretch is just a smidgen below Cam at his best in terms of passing. This doesn't include running. Lets also not forget that Cam carried us without significant weapons around him for a while. Especially on the line. We are blessed to have Allen and he is blessed to be healthy and around some amazing talent at WR/TE/RB. 

He actually threw an interception in the 2 game stretch you're referencing, by the way.

[pantherclaw]

Allen did have a good day. Leave it to fans to say Rivera is downplaying it. 

[AU-panther]

1 hour ago, LinvilleGorge said:

There is no dilemma. We have a starting QB who is hurt and a backup who is healthy and playing well. As long as Cam is hurt there is no dilemma. The only dilemma comes if Cam heals up and Allen is still playing well.

This^  We got a win with our backup QB.  Most fanbases and organizations would be happy. 

The problem around here is that there are a lot of people who are more worried about their opinions being correct than if the team actually wins.

[pantherclaw]

11 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

This^  We got a win with our backup QB.  Most fanbases and organizations would be happy. 

The problem around here is that there are a lot of people who are more worried about their opinions being correct than if the team actually wins.

That is funny as hell, because it's true. 

[The Huddler]

its not hard to comprehend guys

 

 

with all the sshit storms of controversy the media stirs up about Cam over the years due to him being a polarizing and often hated player, Rivera is simply trying to reduce the controversy

 

not EVERYTHING he does is stupid. He knows theres very little to gain by praising Allen and a lot of sshit storm to be had if he comes out and gloats over Allen

 

 

but but but.. I wana be mad and sshit on Rivera! 

[Varking]

36 minutes ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

He actually threw an interception in the 2 game stretch you're referencing, by the way.

He also has a 7 td performance with no ints in there. Either way, those aren’t as good. Scoring 14 points is always better than 7 points. Scoring 7 is better than 0. Either way you slice it, it wasn’t “as good” as Cam during his best 2 game stretch. You are setting this kid up for failure by comparing him to Cams best. 

[Mr. Scot]

1 hour ago, Khyber53 said:

Do you have an actual quote we can check on that? No football player or coach would say that having existed in the reality of the game. They might have said they wished it wasn't the case, but I'm going to have to see an actual quote to tie that one on the coach.

There was an article in the Observer that talked about it (probably by Joe Person).

[onmyown]

2 hours ago, electro's horse said:

One of Rivera's main things, that he's mentioned every time, is he doesn't want players to lose their jobs before they feel their career is over.

It happened to him and it made a huge impression on him.

No veteran is going to get wally pip'd under rivera, no matter how poorly they play.

Good lord that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever read

If I was in charge I’d fire any coach dumb enough to say something like that