Allen should not be QB2

[Icege]

Points opposing teams have gotten off of Will Grier turnovers: 21

-Pick-6 vs. Bills (70yd return)
-Strip sack + INT vs. Steelers (88yd TD return on fumble, PIT's following drive was a TD)

 

Would've been 24pts off of TOs had the Bears' kickers not been doodoo.

[Varking]

2 minutes ago, Icege said:

Points opposing teams have gotten off of Will Grier turnovers: 21

-Pick-6 vs. Bills (70yd return)
-Strip sack + INT vs. Steelers (88yd TD return on fumble, PIT's following drive was a TD)

 

Would've been 24pts off of TOs had the Bears' kickers not been doodoo.

So he still provided more points for the Panthers than the opposing teams? Cool. 21 points given up, 29 scored = 8. Allen scored 6 all preseason. 

[Knockout]

Allen is a stopgap.  If Cam has to come out for 1 or 2 plays, Allen goes in and doesn't turn it over.  That is his only job.

[Icege]

6 minutes ago, Varking said:

So he still provided more points for the Panthers than the opposing teams? Cool. 21 points given up, 29 scored = 8. Allen scored 6 all preseason. 

Yes, he scored exactly one touchdown with a 2pt conversion more for the Panthers than he did the opposing team over the course of 4 games with double the passing attempts of Kyle Allen.

[Varking]

Just now, Icege said:

Yes, he scored exactly one touchdown with a 2pt conversion more for the Panthers than he did the opposing team over the course of 4 games.

And Allen scored 2 field goals over 4 games. 

[Icege]

3 minutes ago, Varking said:

And Allen scored 2 field goals over 4 games. 

How does Allen being terrible excuse Grier being garbage?

If we want to directly compare the 2, Allen had 6pts on half the attempts, which means that extrapolating that data points to him scoring basically a field goal a game without committing a turnover (12pts total)

Meanwhile, Grier averages two points a game which only the defense can provide.

[Seoul_Panther]

1 hour ago, Varking said:

Kyle Allen -

4/6 for 41 yards 0 TDs drives against the Steelers and one field goal drive that got blocked resulting in 0 points. 

7/11 for 76 yards and 0 TD drives against the Bears but he lead two drives to field goals. 

4/11 for 32 yards and 0 TD drives against the Bills and no field goal drives. 

3/6 for 16 yards and 0 TD drives against the Patriots and no field goal drives.

18 of 34 for a completion % of 52.94%. 

165 Passing Yards

0 Passing Touchdowns

29 rushing yards on 4 carries.

3 field goal drives resulting in 6 points. 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Will Grier - 

4/8 for 44 and 2 rushes for 5 yards vs pats

10/19 for 74 yards and no rushes vs bills

9 of 16 for 77 and a td and 1 carry for 20 yards vs bears

11/18 for 189 and a td and 1 carry for 5 yards vs the Steelers

34/61 passing for 55.73% completion %.

384 yards

4 rushes for 30

29 points from drives of TDs or field goals.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Taylor Heinicke

7/10 for 89 yards and 2 TDs and 1 carry for 5 yards vs the Steelers resulting in 15 points.

4/9 for 35 yards and 0 TDs and 2 carries for 10 yards vs the Bears resulting in 7 points on a scoring drive.

8/12 for 78 yards and 1 TD and 1 carry for 4 yards vs the Bills. Also lead a two point conversion for 8 points scored.

DNP vs the Patriots

19/31 passing for 61.29% completion %.

202 passing yards

4 carries for 19 yards

30 points from drives of TDs or Field Goals

 

My conclusion is that if the Panthers lose Cam, we are done for the year. But, if we lose Cam it is far more exciting to watch Heinicke and Grier play than Allen. Allen got to run with our best preseason squad for basically four games and put up a combined 6 points while he was in the games. One field goal got blocked but even then you could say he should have put up 10 points. Grier and Heini both completed a higher percent of their passes, for more yards, they were basically a wash rushing the ball, but the one consistent of the preason was that Allen did nothing to score. If I had to pick a depth chart today knowing that Grier is absolutely going to be the #3 based on where we drafted him my chart is Cam > Heinicke > Grier > Allen. 

If its actually supposed to be a competition and the objective of the offense is to put points up on the board then Allen was by far the worst at it of all three. Bring on the hate but Taylor should be the 2 going into the season. 

 

It's an interesting point but not balanced because you omit factoring in turnovers. Remember last night when we had 150 yards offense and Pitt had 3 yards and they were 13-0 ahead? Don't tell me that an conservative coach like RR is unaware of that...

[Icege]

Heinicke being "more exciting" to casual fans means nothing. He crumbles on contact and we already have Cam's health to be concerned with. Heinicke lit it up vs 4th stringers, yaye.

Hope he lands on his feet wherever he goes 

[Varking]

1 minute ago, Icege said:

How does Allen being terrible excuse Grier being garbage?

If we want to directly compare the 2, Allen had 6pts on half the attempts, which means that extrapolating that data points to him scoring basically a field goal a game without committing a turnover (12pts total)

Meanwhile, Grier averages two points a game which only the defense can provide.

12 points total while throwing to Moore, Samuel, Thomas is not good. With a better line. The thread though, was never about Grier being #2. I actually wrote I didn't want him as the 2. It is that Taylor has outplayed him. He had the lowest completion % of the three, lowest passing yards of the 3 and lowest point total of the 3. While running with our preseason 1ns. I was in favor of Allen losing the 2 to Taylor but Taylor just got cut. But again, read the thread, this was never about Grier being better/worse than Allen. I have now written that multiple times including in the OP that it was about Allen v Taylor. 

[MasterAwesome]

13 minutes ago, Icege said:

Points opposing teams have gotten off of Will Grier turnovers: 21

-Pick-6 vs. Bills (70yd return)
-Strip sack + INT vs. Steelers (88yd TD return on fumble, PIT's following drive was a TD)

 

Would've been 24pts off of TOs had the Bears' kickers not been doodoo.

Context matters, dude...this sounds like you’re pushing a narrative. The interception last night was debatable since we don’t know if the receiver ran the correct route, but to put that strip-sack on Grier is dishonest. That’s like blaming Cam for his Super Bowl strip-sack...nothing you can do if the rusher has a free path to you untouched. 

[Varking]

2 minutes ago, Seoul_Panther said:

It's an interesting point but not balanced because you omit factoring in turnovers. Remember last night when we had 150 yards offense and Pitt had 3 yards and they were 13-0 ahead? Don't tell me that an conservative coach like RR is unaware of that...

Even counting points off of turnovers that means Grier produced +8 and Allen produced +6. But this was about Heini v Allen. People just keep bringing up Grier so then I reply. 

[Seoul_Panther]

Just now, Varking said:

Even counting points off of turnovers that means Grier produced +8 and Allen produced +6. But this was about Heini v Allen. People just keep bringing up Grier so then I reply. 

  I didn't mention Grier. What I'm talking about is the difference between a guy who slings it but can lose you a game- like Jameis Winston and a guy doing less but not turning the ball over. It's a question of preference, and if you have what you consider a strong defence, you are likely to take the conservative option...

 

[Mr. Scot]

9 minutes ago, Icege said:

How does Allen being terrible excuse Grier being garbage?

If we want to directly compare the 2, Allen had 6pts on half the attempts, which means that extrapolating that data points to him scoring basically a field goal a game without committing a turnover (12pts total)

Meanwhile, Grier averages two points a game which only the defense can provide.

One is a rookie while the other has been in the league for a year and actually started a game.

There's a difference in expectations.

[Carl Spackler]

10 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Context matters, dude...this sounds like you’re pushing a narrative. The interception last night was debatable since we don’t know if the receiver ran the correct route, but to put that strip-sack on Grier is dishonest. That’s like blaming Cam for his Super Bowl strip-sack...nothing you can do if the rusher has a free path to you untouched. 

He is pushing a narrative. Anybody blaming Grier for a blindside hit and fumble is pushing a narrative.