2019 draft picks

[Ivan The Awesome]

On 8/10/2019 at 6:29 AM, DaveThePanther2008 said:

For the most part I agree. Many have speculated that H2O (as you call him) was pressured by JR to pay veterans past their prime insane contracts and pick certain players.

I do believe he has learned from his mistakes. 

If what you're speculating is true. Then he wasn't the problem and making the aforementioned mistakes. It was JR. 

[Eric4280]

Is anyone else really impressed with how secure Godwin looked? He looks so fluid and finesse. I really hope he can take Torrey’s spot. One can hope 

[GoPanthers123]

37 minutes ago, Eric4280 said:

Is anyone else really impressed with how secure Godwin looked? He looks so fluid and finesse. I really hope he can take Torrey’s spot. One can hope 

Same here. Building through draft is the way to go.  T. Smith was in case we couldn’t find anyone as insurance.

[Woodie]

1 hour ago, Davidson Deac II said:

Neither,  the Vet love thing is overstated.  Rivera has no more or less love for vets than most coaches.  But plenty of rookies have started for us since Rivera has been here.  In fact, we have started rookies at just about every position during Ron's tenure here.  The list of rookies that have  started for us during Ron's time here is a long one.   

Cam Newton
Christian Mccaffrey
DJ Moore
Curtis Samuel
Ian Thomas
Trai Turner
Scott Norwell
Tre Boston
Donte Jackson
Bradberry
Tyler Larsen
Kelvin Benjamin
Devin Funchess
Luke Kuechly
Shaq Thompson
Star
Short
and some others I am probably forgetting
 

Agree completely.  A lot of fans like to point out guys that didn't start right away, but with more playing time later in the season (often due to injury) showed they are legit, and sometimes better than the guy that was starting.  The flaw with this logic is that they are not taking all of the factors into consideration. 

One big example people like to throw around was Amini Silatolu starting over Andrew Norwell in Norwell's rookie year.  But what they are not remembering (or simply didn't realize) is that Norwell was an UFDA who, while he had the basic physical tools, was very raw in his technique and had a very up and down camp and preseason.  Basically, he was nowhere near ready to play, so starting the year on the bench gave him the time to develop as the year progressed.  That's why when Silatolu went down around game 10 or so, Norwell was much better prepared and far more ready to step in and make an impact.

In almost every instance in which fans complained about a vet playing over a young guy, there is a legitimate reason why that decision was made...and usually it had to do with either health or the young guy making mistakes and needing to develop before being given more responsibility.   

[CPF4LIFE]

On 8/10/2019 at 2:28 PM, CPcavedweller said:

Was it Rivera or Richardson?

Both

[Woodie]

48 minutes ago, Ivan The Awesome said:

If what you're speculating is true. Then he wasn't the problem and making the aforementioned mistakes. It was JR. 

I think it was probably a little bit of both.  I think JR did give Hurney directives about certain players, but Marty sometimes either didn't push back by telling him that it was a mistake or went overboard to make sure that directive was accomplished.

For example (and this is just a speculative example),  lets say JR gave Marty a directive to re-sign Charles Johnson at all costs, and don't give Atlanta a chance to steal him from us.  With that directive in mind, Marty then proceeds to give CJ an offer he couldn't refuse...and likely more than it probably would have taken to keep him.

Now, I don't have any direct knowledge of this, but I do know someone that was in a position to know that JR was involved with a lot of these decisions, and a lot of the signings that doomed us were what he wanted done.  Not that he was necessarily involved with the exact contract given out (other than approving it), but that he wanted certain players rewarded or re-signed by any means necessary.

And that's where I think Marty learned a lot in his time off.  In his previous stint as GM, the Panthers were heavily run based on emotion and with a family orientation.  Once he stepped back, I believe he saw how Gettleman ran things based on logic and didn't make emotional decisions, and the light came on for him and he saw the value of prudence.  So, this time around, he's making more decisions based on evaluation and objectivity rather than simply taking care of good guys that you like having around representing the team.

And new management with a progressive new attitude hasn't hurt either.

 

[LinvilleGorge]

29 minutes ago, Woodie said:

Agree completely.  A lot of fans like to point out guys that didn't start right away, but with more playing time later in the season (often due to injury) showed they are legit, and sometimes better than the guy that was starting.  The flaw with this logic is that they are not taking all of the factors into consideration. 

One big example people like to throw around was Amini Silatolu starting over Andrew Norwell in Norwell's rookie year.  But what they are not remembering (or simply didn't realize) is that Norwell was an UFDA who, while he had the basic physical tools, was very raw in his technique and had a very up and down camp and preseason.  Basically, he was nowhere near ready to play, so starting the year on the bench gave him the time to develop as the year progressed.  That's why when Silatolu went down around game 10 or so, Norwell was much better prepared and far more ready to step in and make an impact.

In almost every instance in which fans complained about a vet playing over a young guy, there is a legitimate reason why that decision was made...and usually it had to do with either health or the young guy making mistakes and needing to develop before being given more responsibility.   

I think you're reaching massively justifying playing Amini over Norwell. I would understand it if Amini was at least a serviceable NFL starter. He was far from it. He was a marginal NFL player in terms of just being on the roster. Norwell was a better player from the moment he stepped on an NFL field. 

[DaveThePanther2008]

4 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I think you're reaching massively justifying playing Amini over Norwell. I would understand it if Amini was at least a serviceable NFL starter. He was far from it. He was a marginal NFL player in terms of just being on the roster. Norwell was a better player from the moment he stepped on an NFL field. 

Beat me to it. I was about to say the same thing.  Almost word for word.

[Davidson Deac II]

7 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I think you're reaching massively justifying playing Amini over Norwell. I would understand it if Amini was at least a serviceable NFL starter. He was far from it. He was a marginal NFL player in terms of just being on the roster. Norwell was a better player from the moment he stepped on an NFL field. 

But even if what you are saying is true, one instance, or even two or three, doesn't signify that Ron or anyone else in the panthers organization has an abnormal attachment to veterans.  The reality is that the coaching staff has started rookies in multiple instances.  

[Ricky Spanish]

7 hours ago, Woodie said:

I think it was probably a little bit of both.  I think JR did give Hurney directives about certain players, but Marty sometimes either didn't push back by telling him that it was a mistake or went overboard to make sure that directive was accomplished.

For example (and this is just a speculative example),  lets say JR gave Marty a directive to re-sign Charles Johnson at all costs, and don't give Atlanta a chance to steal him from us.  With that directive in mind, Marty then proceeds to give CJ an offer he couldn't refuse...and likely more than it probably would have taken to keep him.

Now, I don't have any direct knowledge of this, but I do know someone that was in a position to know that JR was involved with a lot of these decisions, and a lot of the signings that doomed us were what he wanted done.  Not that he was necessarily involved with the exact contract given out (other than approving it), but that he wanted certain players rewarded or re-signed by any means necessary.

And that's where I think Marty learned a lot in his time off.  In his previous stint as GM, the Panthers were heavily run based on emotion and with a family orientation.  Once he stepped back, I believe he saw how Gettleman ran things based on logic and didn't make emotional decisions, and the light came on for him and he saw the value of prudence.  So, this time around, he's making more decisions based on evaluation and objectivity rather than simply taking care of good guys that you like having around representing the team.

And new management with a progressive new attitude hasn't hurt either.

 

Seems like a very fair assessment. It seems like Hurney 2.0 has taken a more analytical approach while still providing a humane approach to dealing with the players - Something we all know Gettleman wasn't the best at. 

I say this completely hating Hurney after his first stint but warming up week in and out to his second stint. I feel like I say this all the time now, but it feels like the further removed from JR we get, the more and more it feels like the incompetence shitball just rolled downhill under him. 

[Woodie]

8 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I think you're reaching massively justifying playing Amini over Norwell. I would understand it if Amini was at least a serviceable NFL starter. He was far from it. He was a marginal NFL player in terms of just being on the roster. Norwell was a better player from the moment he stepped on an NFL field. 

Don't let your bias against Silatolu cloud your understanding of the situation.  Amini was not great by any means, but the simple fact is that Norwell was not ready.  I don't think you really knew or didn't realize just how raw Norwell was coming out of college.  There was a reason he wasn't drafted.  Yes, he had some good plays in preseason, but he also had some significant struggles that could have gotten Cam killed because of inconsistent technique.  You can't just look at the end result to determine what would have happened in the beginning...that's revisionist thinking.  

I'm not going to go back and forth on this with you because I know it is pointless.  But I want to make the point that just because it's easy to look at Amini and say we needed someone else starting doesn't mean we should have thrown an unprepared rookie to the lions...especially since there was no indication at the time that he would do any better.  And from a coaches standpoint, If you have two guys to choose from, and both are likely to struggle, you always go with the vet.  He at least knows what to expect and has seen things the rookie has no clue about.  

[SmokinwithWilly]

11 hours ago, Woodie said:

Agree completely.  A lot of fans like to point out guys that didn't start right away, but with more playing time later in the season (often due to injury) showed they are legit, and sometimes better than the guy that was starting.  The flaw with this logic is that they are not taking all of the factors into consideration. 

One big example people like to throw around was Amini Silatolu starting over Andrew Norwell in Norwell's rookie year.  But what they are not remembering (or simply didn't realize) is that Norwell was an UFDA who, while he had the basic physical tools, was very raw in his technique and had a very up and down camp and preseason.  Basically, he was nowhere near ready to play, so starting the year on the bench gave him the time to develop as the year progressed.  That's why when Silatolu went down around game 10 or so, Norwell was much better prepared and far more ready to step in and make an impact.

In almost every instance in which fans complained about a vet playing over a young guy, there is a legitimate reason why that decision was made...and usually it had to do with either health or the young guy making mistakes and needing to develop before being given more responsibility.   

Sure there is a learning curve for rookies, but you cant tell me that there hasn't been multiple times when its painfully obvious that anyone on the bench would be better and we still trot out the same old guys. And I'm not talking about just players either. Ron is loyal to his guys and you take the good with the bad with that. 

There have been multiple occassions when there have been topics on this message board screaming for a change only to see it 3 or 4 weeks later when he has no other choice. The only reason Washington got canned as DC was because if he wasnt, Ron would have been hitting the bricks. Shula.... just damn. Theres no excuse for that either. 

I'm not saying he will do it often, but he does have his favorites regardless of the product they put on the field. I just hope Torrey Smith isn't that guy this year.

[mc52beast]

Don’t see much discussion about Bonnafon. I think this kid could be a real threat running AND catching the ball. I don’t think Scarlett has a lock on that #2 just yet. And he better hope he can stay healthy.

[Carl Spackler]

17 hours ago, Davidson Deac II said:

Scott Norwell

close, but no cigar