Tepper Wants a Retractable Dome Stadium

[45catfan]

2 minutes ago, Happy Panther said:

Yes but what I was saying is that a new hotel tax doesn't take money from the city. You are suggesting that a new tax on hotels takes away city services which is not the case.

I think you are suggesting that if we need new infrastructure such as schools or police force there shouldn't be new cash flow relating to a football stadium which is a whole different discussion.

The hospitality tax is not new, it would be increased.  The tax already exists.  

[Paintballr]

2 hours ago, 45catfan said:

Tepper wants a MLS team and the MLS doesn't want to use BOA.  Actually, the MLS wants a soccer only stadium, so actually were are talking about TWO new stadiums. Charlotte has plenty of indoor facilities for other events, Spectrum Center, Bo Jangles arena (whatever they are calling it now) so that's a weak argument that there's no indoor places to hold other events in Charlotte.  No, it's the exact same.  On a personal level Tepper may not be the prick Shinn was, but he's playing nice now by putting out feelers. I have feeling he's going to get inpatient and shrink that 10-year window down and when the city of Charlotte balks, that's when will see just how 'nice' Tepper plays with them.  Remember, he's a hedge fund guy, he can be cut throat if it came down to getting what he wants.

Amid all the threats, nobody thought Shinn would actually move the Hornets until he did. I was living in Charlotte at the time and everyone thought it was a bluff.  The Panthers are a business and Tepper is the CEO.  A multi-billion dollar business at that.  I wouldn't make any assumptions on what Tepper won't do when it come down to the what he deems is in the best interest of the team (his business).

MLS doesn’t want BoA because it is a football stadium first and foremost. Look at Atlanta and Atlanta United. They built that stadium to house both. Soccer needs a stadium that can be adjusted to the pitch and have the fans closer and not as high up. So true if tepper doesn’t want BoA for soccer he needs a second, or why not build a state of the art facility that will house both, and be available for the super bowl? 

I was here as well when Shinn was leaving. The only people who thought he wouldn’t leave were naive. His attendance dropped so much the last year he had no choice. He was the ultimate “villain” in the Charlotte press and news. It’s part of the reason why now the press her locally probably didn’t push JR because they didn’t want to be a reason another team left. Shinn was also on court tv back when this was a new thing with trials and was some of the highest rated tv on that channel at the time. 

Have you been to Bojangles lately for events or concerts? It’s great they “upgraded it” a few years ago, and it’s fine for the checkers, but it blows for concerts and other events. Spectrum is small for most events and concerts. If tepper had a stadium with a roof he could host events like the DNC or RNC and not worry about weather, or concerts, or untapped, or conferences. 

[45catfan]

1 hour ago, Paintballr said:

MLS doesn’t want BoA because it is a football stadium first and foremost. Look at Atlanta and Atlanta United. They built that stadium to house both. Soccer needs a stadium that can be adjusted to the pitch and have the fans closer and not as high up. So true if tepper doesn’t want BoA for soccer he needs a second, or why not build a state of the art facility that will house both, and be available for the super bowl? 

I was here as well when Shinn was leaving. The only people who thought he wouldn’t leave were naive. His attendance dropped so much the last year he had no choice. He was the ultimate “villain” in the Charlotte press and news. It’s part of the reason why now the press her locally probably didn’t push JR because they didn’t want to be a reason another team left. Shinn was also on court tv back when this was a new thing with trials and was some of the highest rated tv on that channel at the time. 

Have you been to Bojangles lately for events or concerts? It’s great they “upgraded it” a few years ago, and it’s fine for the checkers, but it blows for concerts and other events. Spectrum is small for most events and concerts. If tepper had a stadium with a roof he could host events like the DNC or RNC and not worry about weather, or concerts, or untapped, or conferences. 

We can go back and forth on this on whether a new stadium is actually necessary and if Tepper will end up playing hardball with the city, but the point is you are apparently okay with the increased tax burden and obviously have the means and desire to do so.  How many "Charlotteans" are like minded?  If it came down to a vote once all the constituents have voiced their opinion, how confident are you the measure will pass city counsel if a majority of the funds are necessitated by tax increases? 

Going back to my original post, this is a different era and the new franchise excitement from the mid-90's doesn't exist anymore.  So tell all these transplanted folks in the Charlotte area from elsewhere in the country that they going to have to foot the bill for a new stadium via tax increases (that in all likelihood they honestly could care less about) and see what they say.  We can't fill the stadium now and when it is full, it's in large part to other team's fan base turning out.  I wouldn't get it twisted, many of these opposing fans are from the greater Charlotte area.  I think you may be confusing casual supporters for die hard fans.   Casual supporters who "like" the Panthers aren't willing to see there spending power diminished due to increased taxes.

[FuFuLamePoo]

A few things:

I live in Charlotte and would totally be down for a slight increase in my taxes for a new stadium. I love the Panthers and I would love to see us boasting one of the most incredible facilities in all of sports. I was actually in Atlanta for the ATL United game yesterday. That is one of the most incredible facilities I've ever been in, can't even hate. You walk in and it honestly takes your breath away. And that games was fun, if MLS takes off in Charlotte like it did in Atlanta that would be huge for the city. This would be huge for the Carolinas.

[Paintballr]

1 hour ago, 45catfan said:

We can go back and forth on this on whether a new stadium is actually necessary and if Tepper will end up playing hardball with the city, but the point is you are apparently okay with the increased tax burden and obviously have the means and desire to do so.  How many "Charlotteans" are like minded?  If it came down to a vote once all the constituents have voiced their opinion, how confident are you the measure will pass city counsel if a majority of the funds are necessitated by tax increases? 

Going back to my original post, this is a different era and the new franchise excitement from the mid-90's doesn't exist anymore.  So tell all these transplanted folks in the Charlotte area from elsewhere in the country that they going to have to foot the bill for a new stadium via tax increases (that in all likelihood they honestly could care less about) and see what they say.  We can't fill the stadium now and when it is full, it's in large part to other team's fan base turning out.  I wouldn't get it twisted, many of these opposing fans are from the greater Charlotte area.  I think you may be confusing casual supporters for die hard fans.   Casual supporters who "like" the Panthers aren't willing to see there spending power diminished due to increased taxes.

The stadium would be taxed and brought in just like any other public funding, hotel/vacation tax. Many of those transplants, people currently living here, wouldn’t even pay or notice the tax. All those “business folk” from the banks, companies etc. would be paying for the tax in their hotel stay and travel expenses (which majority write off anyways). We can go into weather or not I’m personally affected by the taxes of the city or not, but the reality is they could pay Tepper $100 million and hardly anyone in mecklenburg county would go “damn I sure miss that $2 a week I haven’t noticed gone”. But hey let’s not mention the taxes paid on tickets, merchandise, parking, food from restaurants around the stadium, food in the stadium, taxes from events in the stadium (which have happened more in Dave’s tenure in two years than Jerry’s 23), tv broadcasting advertisement etc.

The stadium being full/not full is a void argument as they have the PSL system in place (which I hate but it is what it is). The team gets money no matter what. 

Edit - also I don’t want to hear anyone complain about taxes and city money being paid for a stadium when half the people on this board probably live outside of mecklenburg county to avoid “paying high taxes and property tax”, and amazon having two huge distribution centers within 30 miles of said stadium and that company and their tax practices

[45catfan]

23 minutes ago, Paintballr said:

The stadium would be taxed and brought in just like any other public funding, hotel/vacation tax. Many of those transplants, people currently living here, wouldn’t even pay or notice the tax. All those “business folk” from the banks, companies etc. would be paying for the tax in their hotel stay and travel expenses (which majority write off anyways). We can go into weather or not I’m personally affected by the taxes of the city or not, but the reality is they could pay Tepper $100 million and hardly anyone in mecklenburg county would go “damn I sure miss that $2 a week I haven’t noticed gone”. But hey let’s not mention the taxes paid on tickets, merchandise, parking, food from restaurants around the stadium, food in the stadium, taxes from events in the stadium (which have happened more in Dave’s tenure in two years than Jerry’s 23), tv broadcasting advertisement etc.

The stadium being full/not full is a void argument as they have the PSL system in place (which I hate but it is what it is). The team gets money no matter what. 

I know BOA gets it's money from PSL owners, I'm one of them and it's a complete joke when they announce the consecutive sell outs when many times the stadium is 10%-20% empty.  Again, if PSL owners now aren't willing to fill the stadium every Sunday and they own the seat rights...many who won't venture into season tickets in a new stadium, how do you suppose the city at large is going to feel about increased taxes?  It's a compound effect my friend, if this was the only tax being raised, even as insignificant as it seems to you, then you would be right, most people wouldn't bat an eye.  I guess you missed the part where property taxes were already jacked up this year? 

You hit the nail on the head, they would increase food, drink, beer and ticket prices (plus taxes tacked on) that I can assure you most people already complain about, not to mention inflated parking prices from fewer available lots because they keep getting developed.

Look, I'm not sure what you do living and I'm not remotely asking, but to the average family things are tight enough already.  For a young, single person making $100k a year, sure none of that stuff makes much difference.  How many of those folks are willing to buy season tickets or new PSLs?  Again, I think you are WAY overestimating the demand out there.

[panthersphan]

On 7/31/2019 at 9:06 AM, CPcavedweller said:

No one sells out regular season NHL games except for prime time, weekend games. The Hurricanes...

Bullsh!t.... Plenty of NHL teams sell out regularly: Pittsburgh, Toronto, Washington, Minnesota, Las Vegas, Nashville, Winnipeg, Chicago, Montreal, NYR, etc etc...

 

The ‘Canes, even during the best season in a decade, ranked 28/31 in the NHL in attendance; 14,300/night and only 76.7% full per night, which ranks 2nd to last at 30/31.

Compare that to the Checkers, who put up just under 7,000/night which ranked 9th in the AHL...I guarantee a NHL team would be successful in Charlotte, and would be a better home than Cary....I mean, Raleigh... sorry but it’s true.

 

I would imagine Tepper wants to keep the team in the Charlotte metro area. Who knows if downtown will ultimately be the spot, let’s hope. But I wouldn’t be shocked if it ended up by the new Stateline HQ... which would kind of suck.

[SBiii]

9 hours ago, Happy Panther said:

Yes but what I was saying is that a new hotel tax doesn't take money from the city. You are suggesting that a new tax on hotels takes away city services which is not the case.

I think you are suggesting that if we need new infrastructure such as schools or police force there shouldn't be new cash flow relating to a football stadium which is a whole different discussion.

U dont understand the chain of custody of the cash.

City of CLT increases hotel tax >> extra $$$s flow into CLT city bank account >> city of CLT decides how to spend that cash.

Do u read the local paper?

From today:

"Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Chief Kerr Putney has been talking for weeks about how people who commit repeated violent crimes need to be held accountable. On Thursday night, he sat down with several judicial officials for a public conversation about how to make that happen while violent crime is spiking in Charlotte, despite a multi-decade trend of reduced crime nationwide. One main obstacle is a lack of funding, Mecklenburg County District Attorney Spencer Merriweather said. He said the number of courtrooms and other resources available in state court has not kept pace with the Charlotte area’s growth, and convictions have slipped away from his office because of that."

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article233359907.html

Using incremental $$$s to support out police & court system is a responsible use of new funds.

Handing those incremental $$$s over to an $11 billionaire is completely irresponsible. 

[SBiii]

7 hours ago, FuFuLamePoo said:

A few things:

I live in Charlotte and would totally be down for a slight increase in my taxes for a new stadium. I love the Panthers and I would love to see us boasting one of the most incredible facilities in all of sports. I was actually in Atlanta for the ATL United game yesterday. That is one of the most incredible facilities I've ever been in, can't even hate. You walk in and it honestly takes your breath away. And that games was fun, if MLS takes off in Charlotte like it did in Atlanta that would be huge for the city. This would be huge for the Carolinas.

Why do people keep talking about a "new stadium" in the context of MLS.

MLS unequivocally said do not want to share a stadium w/ Panthers, and, Teppers lobbying for new stadium has NOTHING to do w/ his current effort secure a MLS franchise.

Get a dang clue people, cant believe how deluded u are.

[Happy Panther]

13 hours ago, SBiii said:

U dont understand the chain of custody of the cash.

City of CLT increases hotel tax >> extra $$$s flow into CLT city bank account >> city of CLT decides how to spend that cash.

 

In the case of a hotel tax used to fund a stadium, no it wouldn't work that way. The tax would be earmarked by law to fund the stadium and the city would not be able to use that money at its discretion.

[SBiii]

1 hour ago, Happy Panther said:

In the case of a hotel tax used to fund a stadium, no it wouldn't work that way. The tax would be earmarked by law to fund the stadium and the city would not be able to use that money at its discretion.

Only if the city agrees in advance, it's a city decision.

Do u believe giving money to to an $11 billionaire is a responsible decision at a time when the murder rate has doubled and the police & court system dont have the funds necessary to properly deal with this massive crime wave?

[SBiii]

1 hour ago, Happy Panther said:

In the case of a hotel tax used to fund a stadium, no it wouldn't work that way. The tax would be earmarked by law to fund the stadium and the city would not be able to use that money at its discretion.

Curious if ur a Charlotte resident & earn ur living & pay taxes here?

[Sgt Schultz]

15 hours ago, panthersphan said:

Bullsh!t.... Plenty of NHL teams sell out regularly: Pittsburgh, Toronto, Washington, Minnesota, Las Vegas, Nashville, Winnipeg, Chicago, Montreal, NYR, etc etc...

 

The ‘Canes, even during the best season in a decade, ranked 28/31 in the NHL in attendance; 14,300/night and only 76.7% full per night, which ranks 2nd to last at 30/31.

Compare that to the Checkers, who put up just under 7,000/night which ranked 9th in the AHL...I guarantee a NHL team would be successful in Charlotte, and would be a better home than Cary....I mean, Raleigh... sorry but it’s true.

 

I would imagine Tepper wants to keep the team in the Charlotte metro area. Who knows if downtown will ultimately be the spot, let’s hope. But I wouldn’t be shocked if it ended up by the new Stateline HQ... which would kind of suck.

I saw that post too, and decided to let it go.  About 30 seconds of looking at the 2018-19 attendance numbers and finding ten teams that averaged 100% capacity or better at home for the season had me shaking my head.  And that did not count the other eight that were at 98% or better (okay, seven, Anaheim was at 97.9%).  That's 17 or 18 teams, depending on how strict you want to get with my arbitrary 98% line, in a 31 team league whose tickets are not easy to come by, most likely, anytime.  The Canes' situation is not typical, by any means.  They are not alone, but it is not the rule.

This is one of those issues where people will dig in on one side or the other, and no amount of history, analysis, or study results are going to change anybody's mind. 

The only fiscal argument that I can see is the cynic's argument: that if the government does not waste the money on a stadium/arena, it will just waste it on something else.  While I don't disagree with that, it leads to accelerating the bad investments/waste years before inertia would have taken the government involved there, anyway. 

 

[Happy Panther]

2 hours ago, SBiii said:

Only if the city agrees in advance, it's a city decision.

Do u believe giving money to to an $11 billionaire is a responsible decision at a time when the murder rate has doubled and the police & court system dont have the funds necessary to properly deal with this massive crime wave?

Yes any time a hotel tax is used to fund a stadium it is agreed ahead of time, assuming by law, that the money is guaranteed. The city would not have the ability to change the use of that money year to year.

As far as your second question I don't see it as binary. tl;dr: I think a city can share in the funding of things like a new stadium or team but it wouldn't kill me if the city said fug off to funding (although it would destroy my oldest son for a while).

I don't really care that the owner of the Panthers is a billionaire. It's a cost benefit analysis that is way above my paygrade. Given that the Panthers would have multiple suitors if Tepper wanted to shop around he has leverage but Charlotte has leverage in that it would be a pain to move the team. The Panthers also provide economic benefit which is worth something so it makes sense that the two would want to be partners.

But when we are talking about no money for the panthers because the owner is rich it becomes a slippery slope. What about funding for the arts. Should we reduce that because the police and education are underfunded? A quick google says Wells Fargo is a big owner/donator and i am sure some really rich people support the arts. What about parks?

So no idea.