Heinicke shouldn't be overlooked says Rivera

[Jeremy Igo]

Wouldn't be on another NFL squad

[rayzor]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Igo said:

Wouldn't be on another NFL squad

Could say this about too many fringe players Rivera has kept around for too long.

[top dawg]

Tough crowd!

1 hour ago, rayzor said:

Could say this about too many fringe players Rivera has kept around for too long.

Like who? You must keep things within context. If you ax a guy, there has to be someone to replace him.

The only fringe guys that I can think of that may have stayed overly long is Bersin. I could care less about practice squad guys that we're trying to develop (and honestly we never know too much about them). The practice squad is for the fringe guys until you find something better. 

[raleigh-panther]

16 hours ago, top dawg said:

Tough crowd!

Like who? You must keep things within context. If you ax a guy, there has to be someone to replace him.

The only fringe guys that I can think of that may have stayed overly long is Bersin. I could care less about practice squad guys that we're trying to develop (and honestly we never know too much about them). The practice squad is for the fringe guys until you find something better. 

Amini?   Artis Payne.  Colin

in the entire NFL, we could not find better players ?

yes, I understand special teams and role players but there are better options than these guys there too, some with an upside 

In no world should Amini be on any NFL roster 

there are others from years gone by 

[MasterAwesome]

21 hours ago, rayzor said:

Could say this about too many fringe players Rivera has kept around for too long.

Is Rivera in charge of roster management? Why does this talking point constantly get parroted?

[mc52beast]

What would you expect Ron to say, that Taylor is trash and should apply at BoJangles?

Really pulling for the kid, he played college ball about 20 minutes from my house, heard and saw him a lot. 

[Basbear]

On 6/28/2019 at 3:22 PM, LinvilleGorge said:

Absolutely talk him up. I would love for us to be able to trade either Heinicke or Allen even if it's for a conditional late rounder. We're not carrying 4 QBs.

Hes a dog and I believe its possible they carry 4. Panthers carried 2 kickers, once for a few years. There's room if you do the numbers, just adjust 9 Olmen, 6 WR, 4 RBs, 5 CBs. 

[LinvilleGorge]

5 hours ago, Basbear said:

Hes a dog and I believe its possible they carry 4. Panthers carried 2 kickers, once for a few years. There's room if you do the numbers, just adjust 9 Olmen, 6 WR, 4 RBs, 5 CBs. 

We're not going to go from carrying only two QBs to carrying 4. I think it's possible we carry 3, but not a chance on 4. If Grier wins the backup job outright, we probably only carry two and if Allen or Heinicke has PS eligibility we'll probably try to keep one on the PS. We likely only carry 3 if we aren't comfortable with Grier being the primary backup out of the gate.

[top dawg]

18 hours ago, raleigh-panther said:

Amini?   Artis Payne.  Colin

in the entire NFL, we could not find better players ?

yes, I understand special teams and role players but there are better options than these guys there too, some with an upside 

In no world should Amini be on any NFL roster 

there are others from years gone by 

I'll grant you Silatolu, but the other two have served roles. Colin Jones is still a good ST player, and I have yet to see the guy that definitely deserved to replace him. Some may think differently, but sometimes you just have to keep the standout on ST until it's his time to go. I haven't seen Artis-Payne do anything but an adequate job at being depth his years here. He's been a good backup as far as backups go. This season looks to be the season where we want to try and upgrade him, and if it actually happens, that will be great. But, I do scoff a little bit at the notion that he's been bad. He just hasn't needed much in his prime and was never truly expected to be starter level, so we held onto him as insurance while prioritizing real problems and needs (some created by injuries at other positions at the time).

This season, we've come to the point where the desire to upgrade both makes a lot more sense, as both are aging, aging out of their position (and I am not only talking their literal playing position), and having to compete against better talent. Plus we're making a push to win. This year makes a lot more sense to me than the last two. The competition will still have to push them out though. 

[Pup McBarky]

20 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

Is Rivera in charge of roster management? Why does this talking point constantly get parroted?

Technically, no, it's the GM. But anyone who knows anything about football knows the HC has more than just a little say in the matter - particularly a long-term HC with a SB appearance and two COY awards. Is this legitimate? Dunno, but it is what it is. There's also the sunk cost fallacy at work.

[Ricky Spanish]

4 hours ago, top dawg said:

I'll grant you Silatolu, but the other two have served roles. Colin Jones is still a good ST player, and I have yet to see the guy that definitely deserved to replace him. Some may think differently, but sometimes you just have to keep the standout on ST until it's his time to go. I haven't seen Artis-Payne do anything but an adequate job at being depth his years here. He's been a good backup as far as backups go. This season looks to be the season where we want to try and upgrade him, and if it actually happens, that will be great. But, I do scoff a little bit at the notion that he's been bad. He just hasn't needed much in his prime and was never truly expected to be starter level, so we held onto him as insurance while prioritizing real problems and needs (some created by injuries at other positions at the time).

This season, we've come to the point where the desire to upgrade both makes a lot more sense, as both are aging, aging out of their position (and I am not only talking their literal playing position), and having to compete against better talent. Plus we're making a push to win. This year makes a lot more sense to me than the last two. The competition will still have to push them out though. 

Bersin would have been a far better example. 

[top dawg]

1 hour ago, Cracka McNasty said:

Bersin would have been a far better example. 

 

On 6/29/2019 at 1:36 PM, rayzor said:

Could say this about too many fringe players Rivera has kept around for too long.

 

On 6/29/2019 at 3:35 PM, top dawg said:

Like who? You must keep things within context. If you ax a guy, there has to be someone to replace him.

The only fringe guys that I can think of that may have stayed overly long is Bersin. I could care less about practice squad guys that we're trying to develop (and honestly we never know too much about them). The practice squad is for the fringe guys until you find something better. 

Indeed!

[BrianS]

Bersin is a prime example of JR's influence on our roster.  No way that guy makes any other NFL roster.  Hard pressed to say he would have even been invited to another training camp.

[MasterAwesome]

3 hours ago, Pup McBarky said:

Technically, no, it's the GM. But anyone who knows anything about football knows the HC has more than just a little say in the matter - particularly a long-term HC with a SB appearance and two COY awards. Is this legitimate? Dunno, but it is what it is. There's also the sunk cost fallacy at work.

Yeah of course Ron probably gives his input, but that’s still a silly argument...no offense. Why are we arbitrarily assigning an unknown percentage of input to the coach versus holding the GM to account for any gripes, for what is ultimately his responsibility? You know who else probably has a good bit of input and in all likelihood is in Ron’s ear specifically about these players that he’s “holding onto for too long” or whatever? Maybe the Offensive coordinator? The Positional coaches? You think Matsko was giving any input towards Amini? Or you think Rivera, a defensive guy, against the behest of the GM, o-coordinator, o-line coach, etc., was like “you know what, I see something in this guy and he’s so nice so I’m keeping him”.

See how murky it gets when we walk this line? Why can’t we just blame the people in charge for the job duties that fall within their jurisdiction? Why is it always “Rivera this” and “Rivera that”. Imagine how silly it would be if a manager in a company got a tidbit of subjective input from a data analyst or something, and the manager ultimately made a decision to invest in some new technology or product that lost them millions of dollars. Would the blame fall upon the analyst or the manager? Senior managers acquire input from their analysts and their middle management all the time and that of course factors into their decision making...but they’re put in place specifically for their judgment and intuition in pulling the trigger on the big stuff.

Here’s another scenario: we have regional scouts who are employed to heavily scout prospects from certain regions/colleges. No doubt these regional scouts have a sizable contribution to developing a team’s draft board. If we draft a bust from Oklahoma or something, are you advocating we blame that regional scout or the GM? Let’s not even go that far...hey Ron himself certainly gives a fair bit of input in the draft board. Should we start randomly blaming Ron for all failed draft picks too? Why is this system of blame so random and arbitrary?