Day two observations via Strickland

[top dawg]

Not much info seemed to come out of minicamp yesterday, but this is the most big-picture perspective that I've been able to find.

https://www.panthers.com/news/minicamp-observations-cam-newton-moves-forward-with-his-throwing

After reading the piece, I gathered that the defense had the better day, which is not surprising considering Cam isn't directing the show. And, being that the pads aren't on, you have to further take things with a big grain of salt. That being said, Andre Levrone had a "productive day." He scored twice, one of which was preceded by a 30 yard strike from Heinike. Heinike was apparently able to get the ball moving a little, albeit apparently against the threes, while Allen and Grier were being shut down by the twos and ones, respectively (outside of red zone drills when each QB scored twice). Strickland did note that Dontae Jackson broke up what looked to be a Grier-Samuel completion, but Jackson's best play was a Allen-Moore pass breakup that ended up in the hands of Colin Jones (one of two Allen INTs of the day). 

The backup QB job is still one of the most important battles to keep an eye on. Note that Max Henson (I believe) said yesterday that Tuesday's practice was Grier's best day as well (like Igo), so though the QB didn't necessarily stand out yesterday, at least he had the mind to not force throws into any mistakes. Heinike seems to be still moving right along. The stage is being set for a fascinating competition.

 

[Ship]

I think if we had a better O-line last year, Heinike would be thought of better here. He took some brutal hits. You’re not gonna find many guys who can withstand what Cam does physically, Heinike showed the heart to hang in there which is just as important. I also really like Allen. We’re gonna have a good competition this year because I think all 3 guys are pretty good and equally matched. Again, if the O-line is improved, the back ups will look pretty good.

[Seltzer]

47 minutes ago, Ship said:

I think if we had a better O-line last year, Heinike would be thought of better here. He took some brutal hits. You’re not gonna find many guys who can withstand what Cam does physically, Heinike showed the heart to hang in there which is just as important. I also really like Allen. We’re gonna have a good competition this year because I think all 3 guys are pretty good and equally matched. Again, if the O-line is improved, the back ups will look pretty good

It is a good problem to have. For years we just assumed DA would be sufficient for a fill-in (and he was for a while) and basically just used the 3rd QB spot as an extra ST player in Joe Webb.

It wasn't a bad strategy until Anderson regressed and we didn't have a capable backup anymore.

Last year our QB depth got somewhat exposed, but it would have been hard for any QB to survive behind that line.

Nothing is all bad, though, bc we got to see Kyle Allen's ability.

Between, him, Heinicke, and Grier we actually have quality backup depth and somebody is going to get cut who will probably end up on someone else's roster.

These are first-world problems after the last few years though

[LinvilleGorge]

I'm glad the D is looking strong. At the end of the day, we all know that our offense hinges on Cam's right shoulder. If his shoulder is good, then our offense will be good. If it's not, well...

[top dawg]

I'm not buying the insinuation that Grier will be the QB2 because Turner likes him better, I believe that he is better. He has had way less time and experience in our system and as a pro, but he is obviously right in there with the other two. What do you think is going to happen with more experience? If he is on a fast track, it's because he has the skills and mentality to succeed on it.

The competition is not over, and it's not going to be based upon one game, or one aspect of grading their abilities. The big picture will rule the day.

[Beast_3000]

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

I’m not sure I agree. Allen played with the same OL and got hurt as well. He came in against Atlanta and instantly looked better. Heinecke has the running ability but I think it was night and day in terms of passing ability and Norv’s offense certainly wasn’t built around a QB’s running ability. Not saying he can’t take advantage of Cam as he did but that there’s nothing in Norv that says they need a running QB. Allen’s throws looked like a potential starter. I’ve never felt that way watching Heinecke. Small samples for both but even so, Allen looked better to me. He had 50% more yards per attempt meaning he was actually throwing it downfield and looking better.

I don’t think it matters because they are going for QB3. Burns may have been close but the Turners’ admiration of Grier wasn’t exactly well hidden. Kind of like how most of us knew CMC was the pick and Moore was the pick, I think we all knew Grier was going to be our pick.

Agreed Allen looked the part. His throws and play showed up much better on game day. 

[hepcat]

1 hour ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I'm glad the D is looking strong. At the end of the day, we all know that our offense hinges on Cam's right shoulder. If his shoulder is good, then our offense will be good. If it's not, well...

If the Panthers D can be a top 3 unit and force the most turnovers in the league like they did in 2015, QB matters a lot less

[mc52beast]

Nice to know we will have some quality depth behind Cam this year. The staff kept DA around until he regressed to the point that they didn’t have an option.

And I wouldn’t automatically give QB2 to Grier. If Allen outplays him Ron will give it to him. Don’t see a problem with a 3rd rounder getting QB3.

[LinvilleGorge]

2 hours ago, hepcat said:

If the Panthers D can be a top 3 unit and force the most turnovers in the league like they did in 2015, QB matters a lot less

In terms of contending or not contending, yeah it does. We can be a decent team with an elite D without Cam, but we aren't contending for a Super Bowl. 

The2015 Panthers aren't a very good example of a QB mattering a lot less seeing as how Cam was the NFL MVP that year and all.

[top dawg]

45 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

In terms of contending or not contending, yeah it does. We can be a decent team with an elite D without Cam, but we aren't contending for a Super Bowl. 

The2015 Panthers aren't a very good example of a QB mattering a lot less seeing as how Cam was the NFL MVP that year and all.

Granted, but I'd like to point out that (at least in my opinion) it was the lack of quality on the line and in the receiving corps was a bigger problem than Cam in Super Bowl XL. I may be being a bit too optimistic based upon paper, but I don't foresee that being a problem this season (unless injuries wreck us). I also know that you and others believe that the season is fully resting upon Cam's shoulder, and perhaps that's true, but a quality line, receivers and other skilled positions on offense---along with an elite defense---can go a long way even without Cam.  Neither Trent Dilfer or Jim McMahon actually lit it up on their way to the Super Bowl.

[LinvilleGorge]

3 hours ago, top dawg said:

Granted, but I'd like to point out that (at least in my opinion) it was the lack of quality on the line and in the receiving corps was a bigger problem than Cam in Super Bowl XL. I may be being a bit too optimistic based upon paper, but I don't foresee that being a problem this season (unless injuries wreck us). I also know that you and others believe that the season is fully resting upon Cam's shoulder, and perhaps that's true, but a quality line, receivers and other skilled positions on offense---along with an elite defense---can go a long way even without Cam.  Neither Trent Dilfer or Jim McMahon actually lit it up on their way to the Super Bowl.

Mike Shula failing to realize that Von Miller was going to punch Mike Remmers in the face and steal his lunch money and at no point in the game even attempting to do anything to counter the fact that this was indeed happening was by FAR our biggest issue in SB XL.

[top dawg]

3 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Mike Shula failing to realize that Von Miller was going to punch Mike Remmers in the face and steal his lunch money and at no point in the game even attempting to do anything to counter the fact that this was indeed happening was by FAR our biggest issue in SB XL.

That myth that Shula did nothing to help Remmers has already been disproved. We were in max protection a lot. Now, could Shula have done more? Yes. But he honestly got outclassed, as did the entire team. 

I don't like to revisit that game under any circumstances really, but this article is about as fair as I've seen.

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/10/nfl-super-bowl-50-panthers-mistakes-cam-newton-mike-shula

[LinvilleGorge]

19 minutes ago, top dawg said:

That myth that Shula did nothing to help Remmers has already been disproved. We were in max protection a lot. Now, could Shula have done more? Yes. But he honestly got outclassed, as did the entire team. 

I don't like to revisit that game under any circumstances really, but this article is about as fair as I've seen.

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/10/nfl-super-bowl-50-panthers-mistakes-cam-newton-mike-shula

You're not understanding what I'm getting at. Shula was VERY predicatvle with the way he reacted to blitz pressure. He wouldn't change up his route patterns or the way he was attacking the defense, he'd simply use his checkdown receivers to hold I as extra blockers. Wade Phillips knew this and exploited the hell out of it. He just blue dogged us. He ran a lot of man coverage and if your man stayed in to function as an extra blockers, then you blitzed. Now, there are no extra blockers. It's back to hat on a hat football and his hats were better than ours. That's why some of the Broncos defenders expressed such dismay after the game about how we didn't change up anything they'd seen on film. We simply didn't.

[MasterAwesome]

2 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

You're not understanding what I'm getting at. Shula was VERY predicatvle with the way he reacted to blitz pressure. He wouldn't change up his route patterns or the way he was attacking the defense, he'd simply use his checkdown receivers to hold I as extra blockers. Wade Phillips knew this and exploited the hell out of it. He just blue dogged us. He ran a lot of man coverage and if your man stayed in to function as an extra blockers, then you blitzed. Now, there are no extra blockers. It's back to hat on a hat football and his hats were better than ours. That's why some of the Broncos defenders expressed such dismay after the game about how we didn't change up anything they'd seen on film. We simply didn't.

Why are you acting pretentious? He didn’t understand your point cause you either articulated it incredibly poorly, or you moved the goalposts. He responded to your original claim that Shula never attempted, at any point in the game, to counter the pass rush from Miller...with “well, he did attempt to counter it, just extremely poorly” and provided an article to support that. Then you spent your entire post asserting the claim he already made, that Shula did indeed do a poor job attempting to counter the pass rush.