Marty Hurney tried to trade up to get Greg Little as early as the No. 21 overall pick in the first round

[panthers55]

16 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah but that take is only accurate if Little turns into a solid LT. If he is Matt Kalil 2.0, then it was a huge blunder and a desperation move. So, I can't give him any credit now. If it works out, all the credit in the world.

Not really close in comparison. The reason to draft someone in the second round is a very low salary and not that much given up. Kalil was a 55 million mistake.  Little will cost roughly 8 million for 4 years or 2 million a year. Really smart move and relatively low risk for a potential high pay off.

[panthers55]

Given Matso's success with Norwell, a UDFA, Williams a 4th rounder etc. The whole debate about what round little should have been picked is irrelevant. The same folks criticizing this move are the same guys always criticizing the front office and staff at every opportunity.

[kungfoodude]

6 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Not really close in comparison. The reason to draft someone in the second round is a very low salary and not that much given up. Kalil was a 55 million mistake.  Little will cost roughly 8 million for 4 years or 2 million a year. Really smart move and relatively low risk for a potential high pay off.

I am not talking about Kalil's contract, but his level of play, so the contract has no bearing. As I said, it's only a smart move if it pays off. If not, he wasted a 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick and it was another on a list of bad Hurney trade ups.

 I don't personally have a lot of faith in Little but if he is even an average LT, then it was a smart move. That hasn't happened yet, so we will see.

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Given Matso's success with Norwell, a UDFA, Williams a 4th rounder etc. The whole debate about what round little should have been picked is irrelevant. The same folks criticizing this move are the same guys always criticizing the front office and staff at every opportunity.

Doesn't Matt Kalil essentially kill that as an argument? We can all agree that he is a great coach but not every player is capable or willing. You cannot turn 100% of the chickenshit into chicken salad. Some of it just stays chickenshit.

[panthers55]

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I am not talking about Kalil's contract, but his level of play, so the contract has no bearing. As I said, it's only a smart move if it pays off. If not, he wasted a 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick and it was another on a list of bad Hurney trade ups.

 I don't personally have a lot of faith in Little but if he is even an average LT, then it was a smart move. That hasn't happened yet, so we will see.

Once again bringing up stuff from a decade ago regarding trade ups. How about keeping it relevant to the present. Plus what do you know about playing OT in the NFL. The fact you don't have faith is irrelevant. The fact Matso wanted this guy is though. Somehow I think his track record stands on it's own. Then again you are a Hurney critic so why would you ever say anything positive. 

[panthers55]

4 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Doesn't Matt Kalil essentially kill that as an argument? We can all agree that he is a great coach but not every player is capable or willing. You cannot turn 100% of the chickenshit into chicken salad. Some of it just stays chickenshit.

No it doesn't derail the argument given injury derailed his career. His rookie year he was a probowler.  You are right guys like Otah and Kalil couldn't come back from injury.

How is that remotely related to Little. You keep throwing crap against the wall hoping something sticks.

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, panthers55 said:

Once again bringing up stuff from a decade ago regarding trade ups. How about keeping it relevant to the present. Plus what do you know about playing OT in the NFL. The fact you don't have faith is irrelevant. The fact Matso wanted this guy is though. Somehow I think his track record stands on it's own. Then again you are a Hurney critic so why would you ever say anything positive. 

What we have to reference is his previous track record. That will remain his track record until HE changes it.

You are inventing some butthurt scenario because I am saying it isn't a home run move?? What fantasy land are you living in, exactly? And where are you getting this idea I never say anything positive about Hurney? Why don't you go back and reference MY track record and check my comments regarding everything he did this offseason prior to the draft. 

The fact is, if Little is an average or better LT, it was a great move. If he is a bum or a backup, it was a terrible move. Those are not terribly difficult concepts to understand for the majority of people here.

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

 No it doesn't derail the argument given injury derailed his career. His rookie year he was a probowler.  You are right guys like Otah and Kalil couldn't come back from injury.

 How is that remotely related to Little. You keep throwing crap against the wall hoping something sticks.

I am not going to accept that tired argument about injuries derailing Kalil's career. That was a PR train that he rode to a huge payday and he conned another rube down in Texas into believing that nonsense this offseason. I didn't forget all that "healthiest I have ever been" garbage he spewed. Newsflash: Every NFL player deals with injuries at some level and of varying severity. Not all of them still fuging suck healthy or injured. The anomaly was his first year.

The point stands, Matso can't turn every player into a stud because they have to be WILLING and ABLE to be that. 

[panthers55]

Just now, kungfoodude said:

What we have to reference is his previous track record. That will remain his track record until HE changes it.

You are inventing some butthurt scenario because I am saying it isn't a home run move?? What fantasy land are you living in, exactly? And where are you getting this idea I never say anything positive about Hurney? Why don't you go back and reference MY track record and check my comments regarding everything he did this offseason prior to the draft. 

The fact is, if Little is an average or better LT, it was a great move. If he is a bum or a backup, it was a terrible move. Those are not terribly difficult concepts to understand for the majority of people here.

Honestly I am not worried about Little. I have confidence in our current starters and would be fine with Moten and Williams as our starting tackles. Hurney did a great job signing Williams to a prove it deal giving us the luxury to bring Little along. I don't know if he will start or not right away. Generally I don't like starting rookies anyway.

And again why would you assume that this move isn't great? You watched film?

Why criticize the move in May if you aren't a critic. If Hurney has done good up to now why the turnaround. You seem to have some kind of agenda here. You the one being inconsistent here not me. And honestly I am fine if Little takes time to develop. I don't think he has to be plug and play 

[panthers55]

6 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I am not going to accept that tired argument about injuries derailing Kalil's career. That was a PR train that he rode to a huge payday and he conned another rube down in Texas into believing that nonsense this offseason. I didn't forget all that "healthiest I have ever been" garbage he spewed. Newsflash: Every NFL player deals with injuries at some level and of varying severity. Not all of them still fuging suck healthy or injured. The anomaly was his first year.

The point stands, Matso can't turn every player into a stud because they have to be WILLING and ABLE to be that. 

You don't accept it even though it is generally repeated by everyone including the player and coaches?

And who is arguing that Matso can turn an unwilling or unable guy into a stud? Again how is that related to Little. Who says he is unable and unwilling?  Like I said throwing crap on the wall again. You make strawman arguments  to somehow prove a point no one is arguing about. Little has never been described as unable or unwilling, so why even bring it up. 

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, panthers55 said:

Honestly I am not worried about Little. I have confidence in our current starters and would be fine with Moten and Williams as our starting tackles. Hurney did a great job signing Williams to a prove it deal giving us the luxury to bring Little along. I don't know if he will start or not right away. Generally I don't like starting rookies anyway.

 And again why would you assume that this move isn't great? You watched film?

Why criticize the move in May if you aren't a critic. If Hurney has done good up to now why the turnaround. You seem to have some kind of agenda here. You the one being inconsistent here not me. And honestly I am fine if Little takes time to develop. I don't think he has to be plug and play 

Yeah, I am fine with Williams and Moton as tackles, so it isn't that big of a deal to me either. I think we will be fine as long as we stay healthy along that line. I am definitely concerned about depth but that was because we were such a ridiculous MASH unit last season. At this point, if Little is named the starter at LT(barring it being for an injury), the assumption I am making is that he really impressed in training camp. That has to be largely regarded as a good sign, especially given Rivera's track record on rookies.

My OPINION that it was not a good move was because of the trade up, which I did not like. As for him the player, it was a weak LT class(this is not me as an outlier, it was largely regarded as such) and he performed quite poorly at the combine. Not just athletically but in the movement drills. That's a red flag. Period. I would not be as critical of the move had we simply drafted him at our original pick in the second round. IMO, we REACHED on a player that was likely to be available and I do not regard as being that much of a better prospect than some of the other OT's that went in the late first to early third. That is why I am critical of the move. Simple as that.

I agree Hurney has done a good job. I think almost everything he did in free agency was fantastic. I wish he had fixed FS but it's clear that no one in our franchise truly believes that is a real need, so I don't even know how to fix that. I don't have any agenda other than correcting you on calling it a home run and a great pick. To use your words, it's May. We aren't truly going to know if it was a good move for probably 2-3 more years. 

There is absolutely nothing inaccurate in my initial statement. If Little is an average or better LT, it was a great move. If he is a bum or a backup, it was a bad move. Show me any inconsistencies in that.

[Adb6368]

This report without context means nothing. 

[MHS831]

4 hours ago, cookinbrak said:

But he didn't try at 21, or it would have happened before 37. Picks 21, 22,24,25,26,27,29,30, 31,34, and 35 involved trades. All those teams were ready to bargain. Oakland was making trades left and right.

I think he didn't have the chips to play with the big boys-maybe he dangled a player ? that nobody wanted--like Smith or Searcy?  Long shot theory, but if we needed a starting left tackle, that is where the bidding began.  You make a good point, however.  Who knows?

[kungfoodude]

22 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

You don't accept it even though it is generally repeated by everyone including the player and coaches?

And who is arguing that Matso can turn an unwilling or unable guy into a stud? Again how is that related to Little. Who says he is unable and unwilling?  Like I said throwing crap on the wall again. You make strawman arguments  to somehow prove a point no one is arguing about. Little has never been described as unable or unwilling, so why even bring it up. 

I don't accept it because I have working eyes in my head. There is ample visual evidence to seeing that he was terrible. It existed before he ever stepped foot in Carolina and even more of it exists now after his time here. If he was so damn injured that he was incapable of playing, why did he start 16 of 16 games in 5 of his 7 career seasons? Does that explain him making 64 straight starts in Minnesota AFTER his rookie season and getting worse almost every year? Clearly two coaching staffs across two teams didn't think that was the case. 

I am not the one making strawman arguments. You said that any argument about him being successful was irrelevant because we have Matso's previous successes. Not many here are going to argue that he isn't a great coach but his presence making an argument IRRELEVANT? That's ridiculous. If that was the case, then it wouldn't even matter who we drafted at LT, they would be an instant success anyway. Once again, I am not making an earth shattering revelation. If a player is not motivated to be a great player, if they don't have passion for the sport, or if they are just generally not capable of playing at an NFL level....COACHING WILL NOT FIX THAT. You gotta have two to tango, dogg.