If the Panthers trade up in the first round of the draft....

[Lumps]

2 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Yep. The Bucs were leading the Saints at half in week 17 in 2014and benched pretty much all of their starters at half to go on and lose and secure the #1 overall pick.

Has happened countless times, not even mentioning resting starters before playoffs doesn’t exactly fit the whole ‘win no matter what’ mantra. If you flip sides you can clearly see the Saints wanting to lose as well. In a sense, losing that game was winning, and they actually had something to gain nothing to lose. No one flat out tells the players to lose, that’s asinine. But people aren’t stupid.

And yea, won’t argue players probably get mad when they read between the lines but there is no reason they can’t still go out and prove themselves.

In the end maybe Rivera wasn’t playing so much to win like we all think, and put enough out there where we might lose. Allen played better than expected and proved himself regardless of losing or winning. Perhaps we won more for the fact the Saints were playing to lose. They had absolutely nothing to gain. And in that case what can you do? It’s what I believe happened.

It sucks and it hurt but it is what it is.

[LinvilleGorge]

1 minute ago, Lumps said:

Has happened countless times, not even mentioning resting starters before playoffs doesn’t exactly fit the whole ‘win no matter what’ mantra. If you flip sides you can clearly see the Saints wanting to lose as well. In a sense, losing that game was winning, and they actually had something to gain nothing to lose. No one flat out tells the players to lose, that’s asinine. But people aren’t stupid.

And yea, won’t argue players probably get mad when they read between the lines but there is no reason they can’t still go out and prove themselves.

In the end maybe Rivera wasn’t playing so much to win but more for the fact the Saints were playing to lose. They had absolutely nothing to gain. And in that case what can you do? It’s what I believe happened.

It sucks and it hurt but it is what it is.

Yep, not saying a ton of intentional tanking occurs, but there's ample examples of teams clearly not valuing winning a football game.

[Basbear]

On 4/23/2019 at 10:12 PM, panthers55 said:

Loser mentality at its finest. 

You lack critical information and the ability to understand it. Example - "If Panthers win a gloried preseason game, they lose the 3rd overall pick" p55- "Win at all cost, otherwise your a loser"

[panthers55]

8 minutes ago, Basbear said:

You lack critical information and the ability to understand it. Example - "If Panthers win a gloried preseason game, they lose the 3rd overall pick" p55- "Win at all cost, otherwise your a loser"

You obviously haven't played sports or you would know better. It isn't a debate.

[bigdog10]

I’m not going to be shocked in the slightest if we  trade back into the first and take Will Grier. 

Sounds like hurney has a man crush and would consider parting with next years first. 

[Basbear]

Just now, panthers55 said:

You obviously haven't played sports or you would know better. It isn't a debate.

It isn't a debate, once you have a 0% chance at playoffs, losing is the best solution to gain value. Playing the long game and doing whats MUCH better for the team than worry about players feeling. Now the Panthers have Atlanta in front of them with similar needs, all-cause a meanless game. You couldn't even understand losing a game a gaining the 3rd overall pick, cause "loser mentality".  

[carpanfan96]

The 16th pick and #47 would be enough to move up to the 8th spot typically. 

The 16th and both third round picks would be enough to move up to 10th. 

 

A package of the 2nd and both thirds would be enough to move back into the first round at roughly 25-26th. 

Finally 47 and 77 could possibly get you the last pick of the first round. 

[panthers55]

23 minutes ago, Basbear said:

It isn't a debate, once you have a 0% chance at playoffs, losing is the best solution to gain value. Playing the long game and doing whats MUCH better for the team than worry about players feeling. Now the Panthers have Atlanta in front of them with similar needs, all-cause a meanless game. You couldn't even understand losing a game a gaining the 3rd overall pick, cause "loser mentality".  

You are arguing a moot point. No one does that in professional sports. No one. So to say we should have is a non sequitur. Anything after that is useless. Of course anyone understands the rationale but it ignores the negative which is that it kills the team. Plus if the NFL could prove you threw a game which would be easy after you told players to do it, you can face sanctions.

It isn't done ever. So again you opining why we should have is wasted and ridiculous. Any gain of draft choice is far outweighed by damage to the team and lack of confidence in the coach and their committment to winning and sacrificing their body for the team. And again if you don't understand that you haven't played sports at any.level. so this conversation is useless since you couldn't possibly understand what you have never experienced.

[carpanfan96]

30 minutes ago, Basbear said:

It isn't a debate, once you have a 0% chance at playoffs, losing is the best solution to gain value. Playing the long game and doing whats MUCH better for the team than worry about players feeling. Now the Panthers have Atlanta in front of them with similar needs, all-cause a meanless game. You couldn't even understand losing a game a gaining the 3rd overall pick, cause "loser mentality".  

Players who say no to being benched or being taken out of the game are all over the place. Cam had to be dragged out of the starting line up even with a bum shoulder and no ability to throw further then 25-30 yards. It just isn't cut and dry for a front office to tell the coach stop playing these guys because we want a better draft pick. That's how you get ran out of town as a GM or coach. Makes sense resting for playoffs or if you have leadership in the locker room that doesn't care about winning as much as most players.... Carolina's locker room was led by Cam Newton, Julius Peppers and Ryan Kalil. Two of which were retiring and would've said Fu to being benched and Cam Newton who hates loosing more then he likes winning. 

[Basbear]

Just now, panthers55 said:

You are arguing a moot point. No one does that in professional sports. No one. So to say we should have is a non sequitur. Anything after that is useless. Of course anyone understands the rationale but it ignores the negative which is that it kills the team. Plus if the NFL could prove you threw a game which would be easy after you told players to do it, you can face sanctions.

It isn't done ever. So again you opining why we should have is wasted and ridiculous. Any gain of draft choice is far outweighed by damage to the team and lack of confidence in the coach and their committment to winning and sacrificing their body for the team. And again if you don't understand that you haven't played sports at any.level. so this conversation is useless since you couldn't possibly understand what you have never experienced.

Draft time p55, I respect your opinion even with you defending Shula/coaches(I defended Dan Henning, know the pain). Glad you're a panther fan. We TOTALLY disagree here. No issue revisiting this in the future, I'm opened minded.

[Basbear]

4 minutes ago, carpanfan96 said:

Players who say no to being benched or being taken out of the game are all over the place. Cam had to be dragged out of the starting line up even with a bum shoulder and no ability to throw further then 25-30 yards. It just isn't cut and dry for a front office to tell the coach stop playing these guys because we want a better draft pick. That's how you get ran out of town as a GM or coach. Makes sense resting for playoffs or if you have leadership in the locker room that doesn't care about winning as much as most players.... Carolina's locker room was led by Cam Newton, Julius Peppers and Ryan Kalil. Two of which were retiring and would've said Fu to being benched and Cam Newton who hates loosing more then he likes winning. 

I would start them and proceed to the young ones. Before I would inform of this and list their numerous injuries too. Doing what's best for the team and gathering the best long value. Hoping my early picks don not put me in a position to limit the OG players snaps in another meanless game. Team >>> their feelings. 

[panthers55]

3 minutes ago, Basbear said:

Draft time p55, I respect your opinion even with you defending Shula/coaches(I defended Dan Henning, know the pain). Glad you're a panther fan. We TOTALLY disagree here. No issue revisiting this in the future, I'm opened minded.

We won't pick until 10 so no hurry. Seriously you confuse Madden logic with real life. No one said that logically going 6-10 versus 7-9 wouldn't be a good thing if the main consideration was getting a lower draft. But it wasn't and shouldn't be. Telling Kalil or Peppers to not play or to purposely not do everything to win would have been a slap to their career and shown every player on the team that the coach was two faced telling them all year to win and risk injury for the team and then turning his back on every one playing their last game for the Panthers. And it was against the Saints.  What about the backups like Allen who cemented a place on the team. Or guys who started for the first time and we got to see how they did in a real game on the road. We got to evaluate a number of guys that made the team because of that game. 

Step aside the draft logic and focus on all the competing issues and it is easy to see that the damage of folding  on purpose would far outweighed any advantage in 7 draft slots. Plus it helped decide who we should keep which positively impacted the draft. With Allen aboard maybe drafting a quarterback isn't a high priority. You get it. I know you do.

[Davidson Deac II]

On 4/23/2019 at 4:57 PM, Cracka McNasty said:

Counter argument:

The Rams won their second to last game of the season in 2010 removing them from contention for a top 10 pick.

JJ Watt was taken at #11. They took Robert Quinn instead.

Pretty sure they would trade that one win for JJ Watt. 

And JJ Watt still wouldn't have a SB ring.

[Wyank]

I was hoping they would trade up to 9th pick just to watch the complete meltdown it would have caused.